The Tone Thread

[Greg_L]

Dang!!! I look forward to hearing how you tickle that. Those are sassy little rigs.

Ha yeah. We bashed on some Friedmans one day, didn't we?

This is the big dog I got here. The 100 watter.

[WhiskeyJack]

Dang!!! I look forward to hearing how you tickle that. Those are sassy little rigs.

Ha yeah. We bashed on some Friedmans one day, didn't we?

This is the big dog I got here. The 100 watter.

We did. I loved the Dirty Shirley. i frequently scour classifieds and stuff looking for a Dirty Shirley to present herself to me. But they are unicorn up here far as i am concerned. I do believe we came across that BE100 in our travels too on one of the adventures. That thing is a beast.

Are you going to recording anything of yours with it or is it just home for a good rogering?

[Greg_L]

We did. I loved the Dirty Shirley. i frequently scour classifieds and stuff looking for a Dirty Shirley to present herself to me. But they are unicorn up here far as i am concerned. I do believe we came across that BE100 in our travels too on one of the adventures. That thing is a beast.

Are you going to recording anything of yours with it or is it just home for a good rogering?

Yeah the Dirty Shirley is great for sure. I plug into one of those things any time I see one.


This amp belongs to my buddy Shawn and we're reamping some of his DIs that we did at his place. We're doing an album and we wanna get his live sound - which is the Friedman - mixed in with some of my amps. It was just easier to drag his head over here instead of dragging my amps and cabs to his place. The other guitar player has a Jubilee and we'll be doing the same with his head over here too.

So the record will be mostly Friedman on one side, Jubilee on the other, leads either/or, and some of mine mixed in for texture and shit. They did a bunch of DIs so I've got a lot of really loud reamping to do.

[WhiskeyJack]

We did. I loved the Dirty Shirley. i frequently scour classifieds and stuff looking for a Dirty Shirley to present herself to me. But they are unicorn up here far as i am concerned. I do believe we came across that BE100 in our travels too on one of the adventures. That thing is a beast.

Are you going to recording anything of yours with it or is it just home for a good rogering?

Yeah the Dirty Shirley is great for sure. I plug into one of those things any time I see one.


This amp belongs to my buddy Shawn and we're reamping some of his DIs that we did at his place. We're doing an album and we wanna get his live sound - which is the Friedman - mixed in with some of my amps. It was just easier to drag his head over here instead of dragging my amps and cabs to his place. The other guitar player has a Jubilee and we'll be doing the same with his head over here too.

So the record will be mostly Friedman on one side, Jubilee on the other, leads either/or, and some of mine mixed in for texture and shit. They did a bunch of DIs so I've got a lot of really loud reamping to do.

Shit man that sounds like a rad time? Are you using a reamp box of some sort? How are you tackling that chore?

[Greg_L]

Shit man that sounds like a rad time? Are you using a reamp box of some sort? How are you tackling that chore?

Yup. I have a Radial Reamp box thing.

So what I done did was record all my drums to some scratch guitar tracks. I made a single stereo drum track for each song and put them on a harddrive to take to Shawns. He has a little 2i2 or whatever it is, so we could go direct and monitor with sims. So they played their tracks through sims to my drum tracks and we kept the DIs. Now I have all of their DIs and I can reamp them through their heads at my house through whatever cabs and mics I deem appropriate for the sound and songs. We can do all kinds of layering and texturing and whatnot, or just keep it basic.

Shawn uses his Friedman and a Splawn cab loaded with Celestion's new 65w Creambacks. I have G12-65s, so that'll be a close match to his own cab.
Chris uses a Jubilee and a Greenback cab. I have a Greenback cab, so no problem there.

I'll be able to recreate their live sound, and also add some extra if we want.

We have in the past recorded their tracks live at Shawn's house. His office is adjacent to his garage, so we cut a "glory hole" through the wall to run cables and stuff. We sit in his office like a control room with the amps blasting holy hell out in the garage. I liked doing it like that, but they weren't that into it. So we're gonna do this album the reamp way.

[WhiskeyJack]

Shit man that sounds like a rad time? Are you using a reamp box of some sort? How are you tackling that chore?

Yup. I have a Radial Reamp box thing.

So what I done did was record all my drums to some scratch guitar tracks. I made a single stereo drum track for each song and put them on a harddrive to take to Shawns. He has a little 2i2 or whatever it is, so we could go direct and monitor with sims. So they played their tracks through sims to my drum tracks and we kept the DIs. Now I have all of their DIs and I can reamp them through their heads at my house through whatever cabs and mics I deem appropriate for the sound and songs. We can do all kinds of layering and texturing and whatnot, or just keep it basic.

Shawn uses his Friedman and a Splawn cab loaded with Celestion's new 65w Creambacks. I have G12-65s, so that'll be a close match to his own cab.
Chris uses a Jubilee and a Greenback cab. I have a Greenback cab, so no problem there.

I'll be able to recreate their live sound, and also add some extra if we want.

We have in the past recorded their tracks live at Shawn's house. His office is adjacent to his garage, so we cut a "glory hole" through the wall to run cables and stuff. We sit in his office like a control room with the amps blasting holy hell out in the garage. I liked doing it like that, but they weren't that into it. So we're gonna do this album the reamp way.

Ah! Excellent. Those radials are the cats ass it seems. everyone i know has one pretty well. Thats pretty slick really. Keeping a DI signal of anything is always a great idea. And we live in a world that can afford such luxuries. Should be cool.

Do you you guys have any previous records?

[Greg_L]

Ah! Excellent. Those radials are the cats ass it seems. everyone i know has one pretty well. Thats pretty slick really. Keeping a DI signal of anything is always a great idea. And we live in a world that can afford such luxuries. Should be cool.

Do you you guys have any previous records?

Yeah this will be #5.

I'm not a huge fan of reamping, but it's a practical method for what we're trying to do if they're not willing to just sit and play through real loud amps over and over. We had all the songs written but they were still trying different things and we were "producing" as we go, so it was better for them to do that quietly through sims instead of working on parts with amps blasting 130db all the time. And since time was never on our side and we're a functioning band, it wasn't practical to leave the amps stationary and permanently mic'd up. We had to use them otherwise for other things. This way, now that their parts are finalized, I can just pump the DIs through the amps and it's the next best thing to them playing it live in person.

[Minerman]

The thing is...the way I see it, those EL34 amps that are way way underpowered basically just end up being like 6V6 or EL84 amps. An EL34 is designated to dissipate 25w per tube. Starving an EL34 kind of defeats the purpose of having an EL34. If the general idea of little watt amps is "driving the power tubes", then you're not even tickling an EL34 if they're only making 10w per tube. I think those smaller amps would be better off using tubes that are actually designed to make the low wattage those amps are trying to deliver. If you want to drive power tubes, then I think they should use power tubes that can be driven near their limit. EL84s and 6V6s are perfect for hard driving little amps. Maybe amp makers have found a way to trick an EL34 into thinking it's running full-tilt at lower wattage. I really don't know.

I think you're absolutely right about 'em being underpowered & ending up like a 6v6 or EL84, no doubt about that...While I'm definitely not up to speed about this like you are, & will never be, I roughly know an EL34 puts out 25w, so 25w x 2 = 50w...I actually learned that from you...

But, I can honestly say my Mini Jubilee sounds very different from (the only EL84 amp I've had,) the EVH LBX v1 as far as the power section goes...That's not an "apples to apples" comparison, & those are very different amps, but I usually go for similar sounds no matter what I'm using...The main reason I didn't like the EVH LBX was mainly having too much gain, but I also didn't like what I heard when it was wound up...That could've been user error, but I still like the Mini Jubilee far better, even if it uses starved EL34's...

Whatever technology Marshall is using to drop 2 EL34's down to 20w, I think works pretty well...I know my Mini Jubilee ain't gonna sound exactly like the big version, but, I think it does a pretty good approximation at a more reasonable volume/loudness...

That's just my take on this stuff dude, & all this is subjective as usual...But again, I like what the Mini Jubilee does for me & I expect these new amps to be about the same...

I think the little Friedmans use EL84s, and honestly they all sound pretty bad ass. All of them. I don't think there's a bad sounding Friedman amp out there if you're into rock and roll tones. I've played through pretty much all of them - The Runt, Dirty Shirley, Pink Taco, they all sound killer.

I've read/heard the same thing & I'd take it as absolutely true when you say the same, but I'll probably never know...

[rayc]

From some weeks back.... SCREENSHOTS.

@Greg_L @JD01 @rayc @Lt. Bob

Alt/Print screen as opposed to just Print screen gets you just the active window - which was ReaEQ in Greg's original pic.

Or you can use Mr Snippy if you prefer, once you find him hiding in Windows...

Thank you David.

[Greg_L]

I think you're absolutely right about 'em being underpowered & ending up like a 6v6 or EL84, no doubt about that...While I'm definitely not up to speed about this like you are, & will never be, I roughly know an EL34 puts out 25w, so 25w x 2 = 50w...I actually learned that from you...

But, I can honestly say my Mini Jubilee sounds very different from (the only EL84 amp I've had,) the EVH LBX v1 as far as the power section goes...That's not an "apples to apples" comparison, & those are very different amps, but I usually go for similar sounds no matter what I'm using...The main reason I didn't like the EVH LBX was mainly having too much gain, but I also didn't like what I heard when it was wound up...That could've been user error, but I still like the Mini Jubilee far better, even if it uses starved EL34's...

Whatever technology Marshall is using to drop 2 EL34's down to 20w, I think works pretty well...I know my Mini Jubilee ain't gonna sound exactly like the big version, but, I think it does a pretty good approximation at a more reasonable volume/loudness...

That's just my take on this stuff dude, & all this is subjective as usual...But again, I like what the Mini Jubilee does for me & I expect these new amps to be about the same...

The power section can only amplify what the preamp feeds it. The EVH has so much preamp gain I can totally see it sounding worse and worse as it gets louder. I know you fought with that amp and it was all in the preamp. Many people have the same complaints about those amps - too much gain. So by the time the power tubes got involved, they were amplifying a signal that you didn't really like that much to begin with. Your ears just want the "Marshall sound" and the Jubilee delivers that better than an EVH - regardless of power tubes.

Another thing about power tubes....as far as cranked sounds go, all those classic amps that everything is still trying to sound like used all kinds of different tubes. Many of those glorious Marshall tones of the 70s and 80s were very likely not EL34s at all. 6550s were the tubes that came in American Marshalls during the 70s. And the older Marshalls used 5881/6L6, KT66, EL34s, 6550s, they just used what was available. I think types of power tubes do make a difference, but only when you actually push them. If they're just passing signal without clipping then they don't really have that much difference between them.

And that brings me back to if and/or how these new little amps are getting EL34s to break up. I don't know if they are actually breaking up, or if they've somehow tricked EL34s into clipping at much lower wattage.

[liv_rong]

I really want the Runt 20 as a second amp but if I get another amp I should probably get something with different tubes maybe. I don’t know.

[JD01]

I really want the Runt 20 as a second amp but if I get another amp I should probably get something with different tubes maybe. I don’t know.

The Runt20 will sound totally different to your Boogie anyway.
I pay far less attention to what specific tubes are in an amp than Miner. I really don't think I could tell a difference between them all.
My Blackstar had 2 EL34s, my H&K has 4 EL84s.
When I got the H&K I tried a Victory V30 with 6L6s, a mini-jube and a couple of other amps. I wasn't really considering what tubes were in it at all. I called the shop in advance, turned up and they had a room ready for me with a pile of heads in it. I brought my own guitar, cab and board! I just cycled through the heads until I'd made my choice.

That's a long winded way of me saying, I don't think you should get too hung up on tube-type, just try a few amps and see what one you like the sound of.

[liv_rong]

I really want the Runt 20 as a second amp but if I get another amp I should probably get something with different tubes maybe. I don’t know.

The Runt20 will sound totally different to your Boogie anyway.
I pay far less attention to what specific tubes are in an amp than Miner. I really don't think I could tell a difference between them all.
My Blackstar had 2 EL34s, my H&K has 4 EL84s.
When I got the H&K I tried a Victory V30 with 6L6s, a mini-jube and a couple of other amps. I wasn't really considering what tubes were in it at all. I called the shop in advance, turned up and they had a room ready for me with a pile of heads in it. I brought my own guitar, cab and board! I just cycled through the heads until I'd made my choice.

That's a long winded way of me saying, I don't think you should get too hung up on tube-type, just try a few amps and see what one you like the sound of.

Yeah I get it. I’m nowhere near getting another amp anytime soon anyways lol. I bought my last LP, a bunch of pedals and my interface on credit so I gotta pay that shit down before I can build it back up again!

[JD01]

Yeah I get it. I’m nowhere near getting another amp anytime soon anyways lol. I bought my last LP, a bunch of pedals and my interface on credit so I gotta pay that shit down before I can build it back up again!

I'm currently trying to decide between amp, E-kit or guitar. At the moment E-kit is winning.
Gonna wait till my house extension is done before anything gets bought though.

I figured e-kit would be a decent way of me practising at reasonable volume prior to recording real drums.

[SweetDan]

Here's a thing to go along w/Valentines day. How are the guitars? Just a rhythm and a solo part; rhythm is the bridge p/u on a tele(-clonester), and the solo is a dual-humbucker cheapo guit, again in the bridge position. The amp is my modeling amp with a different, distorted amp model selected I don't usually use. Both mic'd with an SM57.

(The mix is quite rough. I added sends from all the parts to a reverb brought in low, used a touch of compression and EQ on the master bus, but added no treatment (yet) on any of the parts other than some HPF on the drum overhead, solo-, and rhythm-guitar, to smush out some rumbles where present.)

2019-02-13_roughMix.mp3

Aside from all the seriousness about getting good tone and recordings, playing real drums is fun (way more fun than poking in little squares and rectangles on the piano roll editor in the DAW). I mic'd the drums here with my new Sennheiser e602 on the kick and the SM57 overhead.

[Lt. Bob]

And that brings me back to if and/or how these new little amps are getting EL34s to break up. I don't know if they are actually breaking up, or if they've somehow tricked EL34s into clipping at much lower wattage.

I don't think so.
I think they're getting their distortion in the pre-amp and the point of the big power tubes is increased headroom so you don't distort the power section.

I think the intent is that pre-amp distortion gets even fizzier when you add some power tube distortion so they eliminate that by putting tubes in that basically won't distort.

Physics is physics and staved plate designs don't allow the starved tube to distort much.

So I believe the point is to fine tune the gain/distortion sound by getting the chime and clean of the larger tubes but getting the gain/distortion from the pre-amp.

[Greg_L]

I don't think so.
I think they're getting their distortion in the pre-amp and the point of the big power tubes is increased headroom so you don't distort the power section.

I think the intent is that pre-amp distortion gets even fizzier when you add some power tube distortion so they eliminate that by putting tubes in that basically won't distort.

Physics is physics and staved plate designs don't allow the starved tube to distort much.

So I believe the point is to fine tune the gain/distortion sound by getting the chime and clean of the larger tubes but getting the gain/distortion from the pre-amp.

You're totally right, it has to be all in the preamp, which is fine, but the selling point of these mini amps is "cranked power tube tone without the ear bleeding volume".

It's a weird notion because for amps like the new mini-Marshalls, there are two flaws right off the bat:

1) JCM 800s can do it all, but they are preamp driven amps. The reason 800s exist is because back in the day to have a master volume and still have tons of crunch, you needed more preamp gain, so they cascaded the gain stages. They took the "Plexi" preamp, ran one gain stage into the other, and added a pre-phase inverter master volume to control the whole thing. Boom, JMP/JCM 800 is born. You can overdrive the power section, but if you're also overdriving the preamp section, you end up with mush. It's either/or. For as great as 800s are, they aren't made for cranking everything. So what do you gain with the mini 800? The preamp. That's all/ Because at 20 watts, cranking it into power tube saturation is still way too loud for bedroom guys....and at 20 watts with EL34s you may not ever get the benefits of power tube meltdown anyway. All of the clips and video reviews sound fine, but they sound like what they are - the preamp driven low volume 800 sound. All of the new mini-800 clips sound like my 800 with the volume on 1. Personally, that' not a setting/sound I'd use. And I've noticed that the reviewers basically have to dime the bass and roll off all the treble just to make it sound "big". It's a bunch of slight of hand.

2) The Plexi. Contrary to popular belief, Plexis resist power tube saturation. The specs vary over the years, but the original early classic Plexis probably have the most negative feedback of any classic Marshall. Negative feedback keeps the power section very clean and tight and stable. Eventually the signal will override the negative feedback circuit and all hell breaks loose, but to get there you have to be very very loud. The crunch of a Plexi starts with the preamp and phase inverter. So again, where's the benefit with the little Plexi? The preamp and phase inverter are probably the same, but you'll never get to the power section because you're never pushing the EL34. And since the amp doesn't have a master volume, trying to distort the power section will be very loud. And anyone that's ever played a real full-size Plexi knows that those fuckers are loud from clean to dirty. That's where they live. Even at 20 watts, trying to use a Plexi circuit in your bedroom is a recipe for ear damage and pissed off family/neighbors.

tl/dr - Neither amp really relies on power tube saturation and both will be too loud if you try it anyway.

[Greg_L]

Here's a thing to go along w/Valentines day. How are the guitars? Just a rhythm and a solo part; rhythm is the bridge p/u on a tele(-clonester), and the solo is a dual-humbucker cheapo guit, again in the bridge position. The amp is my modeling amp with a different, distorted amp model selected I don't usually use. Both mic'd with an SM57.

(The mix is quite rough. I added sends from all the parts to a reverb brought in low, used a touch of compression and EQ on the master bus, but added no treatment (yet) on any of the parts other than some HPF on the drum overhead, solo-, and rhythm-guitar, to smush out some rumbles where present.)


2019-02-13_roughMix.mp3


Aside from all the seriousness about getting good tone and recordings, playing real drums is fun (way more fun than poking in little squares and rectangles on the piano roll editor in the DAW). I mic'd the drums here with my new Sennheiser e602 on the kick and the SM57 overhead.

Not too bad! I like the rhythms. The lead is a little fuzzy to me, but that's personal preference rearing it's ugly head.

Not bad drumming either. One tip.....don't use the stick tip on the hats. Not always anyway. It's a little too "ticky" and not "pissssshhhy" enough. Know what I mean? Use the shoulder of the stick on the edge of the closed hats. It'll still sound tight, but have a bit more texture than "tick tick tick".

[SweetDan]

...The lead is a little fuzzy to me, but that's personal preference rearing it's ugly head...

Yeah, last night when I had the gear set up and was recording, I was just trying to get the best sound while staying on the same amp model. Even then, though, in my head I would have liked to hear a more "searing" lead sound, and perhaps the "amp" being modeled simply doesn't do that kind of sound, at least not with a bridge humbucker. (It could also be a shortcoming of the software that does the modeling; maybe the real amp could do that sound.) That said, I like the rough edge of the sound, and think it could work well for certain styles of music.



Tips on playing the hats noted; thanks.

[Minerman]

Here's a thing to go along w/Valentines day. How are the guitars? Just a rhythm and a solo part; rhythm is the bridge p/u on a tele(-clonester), and the solo is a dual-humbucker cheapo guit, again in the bridge position. The amp is my modeling amp with a different, distorted amp model selected I don't usually use. Both mic'd with an SM57.

(The mix is quite rough. I added sends from all the parts to a reverb brought in low, used a touch of compression and EQ on the master bus, but added no treatment (yet) on any of the parts other than some HPF on the drum overhead, solo-, and rhythm-guitar, to smush out some rumbles where present.)


Aside from all the seriousness about getting good tone and recordings, playing real drums is fun (way more fun than poking in little squares and rectangles on the piano roll editor in the DAW). I mic'd the drums here with my new Sennheiser e602 on the kick and the SM57 overhead.

I like it Dan, not bad dude...It's a personal preference thing, Greg said he'd like a bit less fuzz/gain/od, & I'd go the opposite direction by adding more dirt, but again, it's just personal preference...

Gotta give you a thumbs up for using real drums too...