The Tone Thread

[Minerman]

Here's an update on my BOOST adventure:
1st is the amp set up for loud n aggressive
Next we have the same settings with the DS1 LEVEL only into it
THEN the XP into the DS1 level only
and FINALLY XP into DS1, a smidgen less level & a smidgen, (same up as level down), of drive.
XP into SD1 2.mp3

Sounds pretty good Ray, as mentioned, this gets better as it progresses...Pretty crunchy dude...

[Minerman]

I finally got around to actually trying to record bass with my amp/cab/mic...I'm quite surprised & pretty happy with the results so far...

I still need to futz around with it as usual, but this little change may wipe the ampsims completely out of my recordings...

[Greg_L]

I finally got around to actually trying to record bass with my amp/cab/mic...I'm quite surprised & pretty happy with the results so far...

I still need to futz around with it as usual, but this little change may wipe the ampsims completely out of my recordings...

I record bass through a guitar amp and cab all the time. I love it. I wouldn't do it live, but it's fine in the studio.

[Minerman]

I record bass through a guitar amp and cab all the time. I love it. I wouldn't do it live, but it's fine in the studio.

You're the guy who actually gave me the idea...Since it doesn't need to be recorded at ear-shattering levels, I was thinking about using a condenser mic for the bottom end, & the usual dynamic for the top end/mids...

The Mini 800's low input does pretty good for clean bass so far...The Chupa might be even better, since it has more bottom/girth, I just need to experiment...Hell, the Mini Jubilee's clean channel probably would do fine...

I've been using the i5/Greenback, any particular mic/speaker combination work best for you????

[Greg_L]

I've been using the i5/Greenback, any particular mic/speaker combination work best for you????

I like stiffer speakers. I usually use the V30s or H30s and a 57. Bass is the one area where I'll break all of my self-imposed "rules" and record it at low volume and EQ the shit out of it if necessary.

I personally don't like a ton of low end in my bass. The low end is there just because it's bass, but I'm not into the super full massive low thump of bass guitar. I treat it like any other guitar.

[Minerman]

I like stiffer speakers. I usually use the V30s or H30s and a 57. Bass is the one area where I'll break all of my self-imposed "rules" and record it at low volume and EQ the shit out of it if necessary.

I personally don't like a ton of low end in my bass. The low end is there just because it's bass, but I'm not into the super full massive low thump of bass guitar. I treat it like any other guitar.

I'm trying to get away from using so much low end in my bass too, but I like to "feel" the low end in the mix...Messing around this morning, my ampsim sounds have way more low end, so I tried blending the mic'd bass with the usual AT4 thing I do, & I found this may work too...I still have some thump from the ampsim, but the real mic'd track adds something that I wasn't getting before...

It's weird, but the low end of the kick comes through more with the blended ampsim & the mic'd bass track, ...So far I really like the real amp/cab/mic for my bass tones, I just need to be able to pull it off consistently...

[Greg_L]

I'm trying to get away from using so much low end in my bass too, but I like to "feel" the low end in the mix...Messing around this morning, my ampsim sounds have way more low end, so I tried blending the mic'd bass with the usual AT4 thing I do, & I found this may work too...I still have some thump from the ampsim, but the real mic'd track adds something that I wasn't getting before...

It's weird, but the low end of the kick comes through more with the blended ampsim & the mic'd bass track, ...So far I really like the real amp/cab/mic for my bass tones, I just need to be able to pull it off consistently...

I find that my drums always sound better when I mic real guitars and bass as opposed to sims. Always, without fail. There's something in sims that does something to my drums and I don't like it at all.

And in the same vein, my guitars and bass sound way better to me when real drums are present as opposed to drum programs. I "demo" my songs with drum loops just to get ideas down and sorted and then I'll track everything for real. In that stage I hate the way my scratch guitar tracks act in the mix next to fake drums. Then I'll track real drums and those same crappy guitar tracks suddenly sound much better.

[WhiskeyJack]

I like stiffer speakers. I usually use the V30s or H30s and a 57. Bass is the one area where I'll break all of my self-imposed "rules" and record it at low volume and EQ the shit out of it if necessary.

I personally don't like a ton of low end in my bass. The low end is there just because it's bass, but I'm not into the super full massive low thump of bass guitar. I treat it like any other guitar.

I'm trying to get away from using so much low end in my bass too, but I like to "feel" the low end in the mix...Messing around this morning, my ampsim sounds have way more low end, so I tried blending the mic'd bass with the usual AT4 thing I do, & I found this may work too...I still have some thump from the ampsim, but the real mic'd track adds something that I wasn't getting before...

It's weird, but the low end of the kick comes through more with the blended ampsim & the mic'd bass track, ...So far I really like the real amp/cab/mic for my bass tones, I just need to be able to pull it off consistently...

Miner, for years i only ever used DI bass into the soundcard and either put an amp sim on it or a cab sim. And i thought i liked it. It wasn't until that last recording challenge i did that i was like "you know what, i have a bass rig sitting around getting no love, i spent $$ on it, i am going to use it"

Best decision ever. EVER!

I know people will be like "it's just bass it doesn't matter blah blah blah" Well, it kind of does matter. It a lot matters. All the rhythm section matters and sadly the bass kind of falls into that. My DI'd bass i discovered was the one big thing really holding me back from having a really good overall mix. Yea i use EZ drummer and in theory it should (and does) make it much easier, but in reality frequencies are frequencies regardless of the source of it noise maker and a DI'd bass throws alot of garbage into a mix.

When you DI a bass and just say "meh there we go i got bass" you get the full meal deal. you get all the transients, every bit of frequency spectrum all they was down to 0 lol. Thats not great. I think most of us dumb dumbs can work with the mixing of the full frequency spectrum right? Cut this shelf that etc. but for me, and the way i play it was those mother fucking transients input at the full range were just aggravating.

As soon as i put a couple mics in front of a cab i would say a better part of my issues with bass in a mix went away. The low end got more "real" feeling, the transients played a little nicer with the post compression, using two mics made it easier to blend for a better sounding mix and cut down on how much eq'ing i needed. I found with a DI'd bass i wasted shit loads of time editing and EQ'ing.

In your case, if you like the thump and feel of the bass in a mix i would make the suggestion you keep using the DI track and cut out anything in the DI track that is 100hz or more and use what's left to season the low end to taste. let your mic'd tracks do all the rest of the magic. I tracked some DI tracks but they never even made it into the mix, they were wasted HD space really. I do this with guitars too. Bad habit maybe, but i come from a school of thought that it is better to have then to have not. I figure if i have the DI track and i need to add anything in like more cut or bite i can add an amp sim or something on it and season to taste. Oddly i never ever end up needing it. I think the only time it ever came in handy was one time i did an acoustic thing and back when i was in my apartment. The mic'd track sounded like shit and had a lot of rail way yard noise in it and i just used the di track because it sounded better.

[WhiskeyJack]

@rayc and anyone else that might give shit.

This is the difference between PRE phase inverter master volume, and POST phase inverter master volume on Plexi/Bassman type amps that don't have their own master volumes.

Gibson Les Paul Traditional - Muttbucker PAF bridge
Marshall 1987 50w Plexi
Presence - 4
Bass - 5
Mid - 6
Treb - 4
Bright channel 1 vol - 5
High input only
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion G12-65
MXL R144 on axis, 3" off grill, dead center - Shure SM57 on axis, 3" off grill, just outside dustcap
50/50 mic blend
No FX or EQ

First up, the amp in it's natural state. No master volume.

Turned down 50% with POST phase inverter master volume.

Turned down 50% with PRE phase inverter master volume

This is without adjusting the mic preamps. Full loud is the baseline, and the others are relative to full loud. As you can tell, the amount of volume reduction between pre and post master volumes is different. And so is what it does to the tone. By cutting the signal before the phase inverter, it loses a lot of grind. The phase inverter, as part of the power section, obviously plays a big part in the tone. If I cut it back even further/quieter, the tone thins out even more. The preamp section alone is not enough to get the goods from this amp. Putting the master volume as POST phase inverter, we still get that goodness from the phase inverter being overdriven by the preamp, and the sound is closer to stock.....just at a lower volume.

They are all grossly different. that is pretty crazy dude. I am 100% in the dark and i have been so busy and so distant ifeel like i am missing something here? IS this a mod or something you had done? Old or recently? I don't know man. Either way it sounds really cool.

The other two clips that appear later in the thread aren't AS drastic but i definitely hear some tonal differences. The later being a much more punchy and clear.

[WhiskeyJack]

Here's an update on my BOOST adventure:
1st is the amp set up for loud n aggressive
Next we have the same settings with the DS1 LEVEL only into it
THEN the XP into the DS1 level only
and FINALLY XP into DS1, a smidgen less level & a smidgen, (same up as level down), of drive.
XP into SD1 2.mp3

Cool Ray.

I like where it was headed with the two boosts together but it sounded like it was either starting to clip or there was some serious fizzy sizzling going on once both pedals were engaged? Maybe that was the purposes i am not sure. I think i may have missed some of kick off of your boost adventure. I rememebr some discussion but no sounds.

Regardless, after having monkeyed around with some boost stacking of my own the more i hear of it the more i like it.

Have you tried reversing the order of the two? the EP in front DS1 ?

Maybe that is the piece i missed?

[Greg_L]

They are all grossly different. that is pretty crazy dude. I am 100% in the dark and i have been so busy and so distant ifeel like i am missing something here? IS this a mod or something you had done? Old or recently? I don't know man. Either way it sounds really cool.

The other two clips that appear later in the thread aren't AS drastic but i definitely hear some tonal differences. The later being a much more punchy and clear.

That's an amp I modded maybe two years ago. It's a 50w Plexi reissue, and I converted the "normal" channel into a cascaded gain JCM800-type preamp. It's on a push/pull pot, so the amp can either be stock 50W Plexi, or JCM 800. It's basically two of the greatest amps of all time in one.

In Plexi mode, it has no volume, so I added a Post PIMV.
In cascaded JCM800 mode, the Plexi's normal volume channel control becomes a Pre PIMV.
So the amp ends up with a Pre and Post phase inverter master volume.

[Minerman]

Miner, for years i only ever used DI bass into the soundcard and either put an amp sim on it or a cab sim. And i thought i liked it. It wasn't until that last recording challenge i did that i was like "you know what, i have a bass rig sitting around getting no love, i spent $$ on it, i am going to use it"

Best decision ever. EVER!

Yeah Shan, I agree, I've got a killer guitar amp/cab setup, & there's no sense not using it for my bass too...

I know people will be like "it's just bass it doesn't matter blah blah blah" Well, it kind of does matter. It a lot matters. All the rhythm section matters and sadly the bass kind of falls into that. My DI'd bass i discovered was the one big thing really holding me back from having a really good overall mix. Yea i use EZ drummer and in theory it should (and does) make it much easier, but in reality frequencies are frequencies regardless of the source of it noise maker and a DI'd bass throws alot of garbage into a mix.

When you DI a bass and just say "meh there we go i got bass" you get the full meal deal. you get all the transients, every bit of frequency spectrum all they was down to 0 lol. Thats not great. I think most of us dumb dumbs can work with the mixing of the full frequency spectrum right? Cut this shelf that etc. but for me, and the way i play it was those mother fucking transients input at the full range were just aggravating.

As soon as i put a couple mics in front of a cab i would say a better part of my issues with bass in a mix went away. The low end got more "real" feeling, the transients played a little nicer with the post compression, using two mics made it easier to blend for a better sounding mix and cut down on how much eq'ing i needed. I found with a DI'd bass i wasted shit loads of time editing and EQ'ing.

Off Topic

On the fake drums thing, I thought I was gonna move on to the real deal, but my interface took a shit, so I'll have to sort that out, plus add some more mics, so it's still gonna be a while...I do have access to a real kit, I just have to take my recording rig somewhere else to use it...Someday...LOL...

I've spent a lot of time trying different things trying to make my fake drums sound real, even going as far as rendering raw wav's, trying to make them sound like Greg or Rami's raw drum tracks...It's work, but it can be done...You should be able to do the same with EZD dude, multi-output 'em with no processing to begin with & take it from there...I'm sure Greg or someone else would send you some raw tracks as a guide to get you started, if you wanna go that route that is...

Back to the bass, it does matter IMO, a lot...In my humble opinion, the bass can affect the guitar tone, & vice-versa...One thing I hate about ampsims are the transients you mention, you can kinda smooth 'em out with compression/eq, but what I end up with just doesn't sound "right"...Just a lot of work for results that I'm not totally happy with, so I'm gonna try something else...

In your case, if you like the thump and feel of the bass in a mix i would make the suggestion you keep using the DI track and cut out anything in the DI track that is 100hz or more and use what's left to season the low end to taste. let your mic'd tracks do all the rest of the magic. I tracked some DI tracks but they never even made it into the mix, they were wasted HD space really. I do this with guitars too. Bad habit maybe, but i come from a school of thought that it is better to have then to have not. I figure if i have the DI track and i need to add anything in like more cut or bite i can add an amp sim or something on it and season to taste. Oddly i never ever end up needing it. I think the only time it ever came in handy was one time i did an acoustic thing and back when i was in my apartment. The mic'd track sounded like shit and had a lot of rail way yard noise in it and i just used the di track because it sounded better.

I've already found blending the low end of a di/ampsim bass does fatten up my mic'd track, but I'm still gonna work on this until I don't need to use the di...Just another chapter in my journey, hopefully leading to a place I wanna be...


On the di thing, Shan I always, always record a di as a backup for my guitars...I actually re-amp while I track, every tone you guys have heard for the last few years has been recorded this way, & I'm pretty happy with that system for my guitars, so it should work for bass too...I don't think it's hdd space wasted myself, just something to fall back on if needed...

[JD01]

OK, here's a few initial tones from the tele re-wiring
viewtopic.php?f=47&p=68141#p68141

[Minerman]

OK, here's a few initial tones from the tele re-wiring
viewtopic.php?f=47&p=68141#p68141

Sounds good, love the tele dude!!!

Of course, you're gonna get feedback if you use lots of gain & those p'ups, my strat does when in split mode anyway...

I've been wanting a tele for a while & this just adds to my GAS...

[rayc]

The QUEST for getting the correct tone from the tool continues...
As you've noted my recorded guitar/amp/cab set up comes across as rather dark. I had a thought that it may be related to my newer interface and newer computer so I recorded a simple phrase or two into a looper and set about recording the same signals into the two different set ups.
I also decided to try a slightly different signal path.
this time it's:
LOOPER -> amp
Looper -> Boss SD1 -> amp
Looper -> Ibanez EQ BOOST -> amp
Looper -> ibanez EQ BOOST to Ibanez HI Boost -> amp
LOOPER -> amp
repeated for both interface set ups.
Are the two set ups different sounding?
Are any results of parts of the the signal chain useful?

looper.jpg

amp setting.jpg

signal chain.jpg

TWO boosts.jpg

mic placement.jpg

I did move the e609 closer to the centre by about 4cm after taking the snap.
OLD set up

tone test ibanez EQ boost OLD comp.mp3

NEW set up

Tone test ibanez NEW comp.mp3

Here's phone audio of the last run through with DS1 & XP boost - I know, I know but it give some hint to how much brighter the sound is in the room.

Phone audio..mp3

[Greg_L]

Well new is louder and seems like there's a reverb on there, so not really a fair comparison.

None of it is "dark" though.

[rayc]

Well new is louder and seems like there's a reverb on there, so not really a fair comparison.
None of it is "dark" though.

[mention]Greg_L[/mention] ,
I was amused to find the "reverb" too. It may be that swapping between two set ups I forgot to switch something off.
I tried to get the levels similar but didn't do too brilliantly.
If things aren't dark then that's a step in the right direction. I was a little worried that the preamps were doing a number on the sound.
I'll have to sit n listen a bit to find out if any of the signal chain combos works well enough.

[Greg_L]

@Greg_L ,
I was amused to find the "reverb" too. It may be that swapping between two set ups I forgot to switch something off.
I tried to get the levels similar but didn't do too brilliantly.
If things aren't dark then that's a step in the right direction. I was a little worried that the preamps were doing a number on the sound.
I'll have to sit n listen a bit to find out if any of the signal chain combos works well enough.

I find it hard to believe that an interface's preamps could be powerful enough to make a track dark. But no matter, your tracks aren't dark at all.

[rayc]

I find it hard to believe that an interface's preamps could be powerful enough to make a track dark. But no matter, your tracks aren't dark at all.

I was just looking for excuses and suspecting that there was an EQ effect or something in the pre. had stuck in my mind since I read something somewhere. I tried it & it didn't appear to be the case in the room or in the computer. Pity I stuffed up the sample with reverb. Thnaks for listening and helping.

[TripleM]

The QUEST for getting the correct tone from the tool continues...
As you've noted my recorded guitar/amp/cab set up comes across as rather dark. I had a thought that it may be related to my newer interface and newer computer so I recorded a simple phrase or two into a looper and set about recording the same signals into the two different set ups.
I also decided to try a slightly different signal path.
this time it's:
LOOPER -> amp
Looper -> Boss SD1 -> amp
Looper -> Ibanez EQ BOOST -> amp
Looper -> ibanez EQ BOOST to Ibanez HI Boost -> amp
LOOPER -> amp
repeated for both interface set ups.
Are the two set ups different sounding?

I didn't think any of the clips were dark.

It was a little tough to compare old vs new. The old clips were quieter and dry. The newer clips were pretty reverb-y. Trying to factor in those two inherent differences the tone of the clips sounded pretty similar.