The Tone Thread

[WhiskeyJack]

Ok here we go. Some Recording Challenge #2 stuff! Also some feedback on the issue i had going on here in this thread.

Please forgive me on those rouge B string flubs on the left channel when i hit the gas on some of those A# power chords. I know they are there. I have no choice i gotta go back and retrack it so whatever my apologies to yours ears, upfront i just gotta move on past this but next time you hear this they won't be there. promise

Left:
LpJr>AD30>V30
Master 5
Treb 6
Mid 7
Bass 6
Gain 4

This track also features the Hantaun. It's cute little blue LED is on all the time.
Gain 0
Treble 1 o'clock
Output 2:30

Right:
Ibanez PF350 Bridge Humbucker>AD30>V30
Master 5
Treb 6
Mid 7
Bass 6
Gain 5

Both channels are mic'd exactly the same, but each is blended differently.

Unidyne 544: half a cm off grill and about 1cm Northwest of the seam of the cap and cone,
e906: mostly (idfk where the capsule is?) over the seam of cap and cone just shy a cm off the grill
57: halfway out the cone and a little more than a cm off the grill.

For the left channel i sort of aligned the SM57 phase with the 544 and then in the right i aligned it up with the e906 and things sounded a lot less nasaly then it did the other day. other than that there is no EQ applied to any of it is just fader blending.

20190429 RecChal2Tones.mp3

[JD01]

[mention]WhiskeyJack[/mention] I think this sounds pretty great, mate.
I'd be well happy with that.
Although its double tracked - you said you don't like double tracking and you use this crazy mic setup to get yourself a thick sound in the absence of double tracked guitars! You playing is tight enough though and this sounds good.

How's it panned - sounds a little weird on headphones - like the left guitar is panned narrower than the right guitar. (that could be my ears though, my surfer's ear is getting worse and I have a bit of a cold right now.)

[Greg_L]

Ok here we go. Some Recording Challenge #2 stuff! Also some feedback on the issue i had going on here in this thread.

Please forgive me on those rouge B string flubs on the left channel when i hit the gas on some of those A# power chords. I know they are there. I have no choice i gotta go back and retrack it so whatever my apologies to yours ears, upfront i just gotta move on past this but next time you hear this they won't be there. promise

Left:
LpJr>AD30>V30
Master 5
Treb 6
Mid 7
Bass 6
Gain 4

This track also features the Hantaun. It's cute little blue LED is on all the time.
Gain 0
Treble 1 o'clock
Output 2:30

Right:
Ibanez PF350 Bridge Humbucker>AD30>V30
Master 5
Treb 6
Mid 7
Bass 6
Gain 5

Both channels are mic'd exactly the same, but each is blended differently.

Unidyne 544: half a cm off grill and about 1cm Northwest of the seam of the cap and cone,
e906: mostly (idfk where the capsule is?) over the seam of cap and cone just shy a cm off the grill
57: halfway out the cone and a little more than a cm off the grill.

For the left channel i sort of aligned the SM57 phase with the 544 and then in the right i aligned it up with the e906 and things sounded a lot less nasaly then it did the other day. other than that there is no EQ applied to any of it is just fader blending.


20190429 RecChal2Tones.mp3

I think this is really good. I'm not noticing any glaring phase problems. My only concern is the stacking up of proximity effect. I can hear it. It sounds awesome and massive on it's own, but without it being in a mix I'm a little concerned with how it could potentially overpower a mix.

[WhiskeyJack]

@WhiskeyJack I think this sounds pretty great, mate.
I'd be well happy with that.
Although its double tracked - you said you don't like double tracking and you use this crazy mic setup to get yourself a thick sound in the absence of double tracked guitars! You playing is tight enough though and this sounds good.

How's it panned - sounds a little weird on headphones - like the left guitar is panned narrower than the right guitar. (that could be my ears though, my surfer's ear is getting worse and I have a bit of a cold right now.)

Thanks man. After walking away from it for a little bit made it seem less shitty than i thought it was. Maybe i am confused as to what double tracking is? I guess it is double tracked if you consider one track is going to be the performance to make up the right side of the stereo field and the other is the take that will occupy the right side of the stereo field. That to me makes sense? Like a band with two guitar players would track it this way? When i say double tracking i mean like stacking two or more different performances or takes on top of each other on each on the left and right sides? Hopefully that makes sense. I might very well be calling a process the wrong thing.

These tracks are all both hard panned 100% left and right. It could possibly just be an uneven balance of blending that gives it a lopsided feel maybe?

My only concern is the stacking up of proximity effect. I can hear it.

What do you mean by proximity effect? Just that everything sounds way too close? No Space?

[musicturtle]

Ok here we go. Some Recording Challenge #2 stuff! Also some feedback on the issue i had going on here in this thread.

Please forgive me on those rouge B string flubs on the left channel when i hit the gas on some of those A# power chords. I know they are there. I have no choice i gotta go back and retrack it so whatever my apologies to yours ears, upfront i just gotta move on past this but next time you hear this they won't be there. promise

Left:
LpJr>AD30>V30
Master 5
Treb 6
Mid 7
Bass 6
Gain 4

This track also features the Hantaun. It's cute little blue LED is on all the time.
Gain 0
Treble 1 o'clock
Output 2:30

Right:
Ibanez PF350 Bridge Humbucker>AD30>V30
Master 5
Treb 6
Mid 7
Bass 6
Gain 5

Both channels are mic'd exactly the same, but each is blended differently.

Unidyne 544: half a cm off grill and about 1cm Northwest of the seam of the cap and cone,
e906: mostly (idfk where the capsule is?) over the seam of cap and cone just shy a cm off the grill
57: halfway out the cone and a little more than a cm off the grill.

For the left channel i sort of aligned the SM57 phase with the 544 and then in the right i aligned it up with the e906 and things sounded a lot less nasaly then it did the other day. other than that there is no EQ applied to any of it is just fader blending.


20190429 RecChal2Tones.mp3

I like it WJ! Pretty fat tone there.

[Greg_L]

What do you mean by proximity effect? Just that everything sounds way too close? No Space?

When you slam a mic with loud noises, you get "proximity effect". It's an enhancement of low end above and beyond what's naturally there. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a problem sometimes on certain things.

One mic on one source with some proximity effect, no big deal.
Two mics...meh. Maybe a problem. Maybe not.
Three mics...it can start stacking up pretty bad.

You'll just have to get it in a mix and see. Against bass and kick drum, all that guitar low end might be a problem.

[JD01]

I guess it is double tracked if you consider one track is going to be the performance to make up the right side of the stereo field and the other is the take that will occupy the right side of the stereo field. That to me makes sense? Like a band with two guitar players would track it this way?

That's exactly what I mean by double tracking (I'm guessing you've said you pan them both right is a typo!).
I double track pretty much everything I do this way with two guitars hard panned L/R.
I have quad tracked guitars once (they sounded good) with two guitars hard panned L/R and two guitars panned 75% L/R but with a tiny bit more reverb than the hard panned guitars.

[WhiskeyJack]

I like it WJ! Pretty fat tone there.

Thanks MT. Might possibly be a little too fat. We shall see.

That's exactly what I mean by double tracking (I'm guessing you've said you pan them both right is a typo!).
I double track pretty much everything I do this way with two guitars hard panned L/R.
I have quad tracked guitars once (they sounded good) with two guitars hard panned L/R and two guitars panned 75% L/R but with a tiny bit more reverb than the hard panned guitars.

Lol totally a typo. I meant one left one right. Nothing like a dumb mistake while trying to clarify something

Ok we're just on different pages. Same shit different page. What you are calling quad i have been calling double. Probably from back in band days. I would track my personal guitar parts twice each to make up the left channel. hence the double track. then my buddy would do his part twice. also a double, but technically a quad from the way you describe it on your end. I once did a song with three takes per guitarist, (A sextuple for you limeys) and it just sounded shit. never again. i think it was just a cash grab for the guy who was recording us. We paid a lot of shekels for one song. Criminal really knowing what i know now.

I also feel like this conversation has happened before. Either that i am having a mad case of deja vu.

What do you mean by proximity effect? Just that everything sounds way too close? No Space?

When you slam a mic with loud noises, you get "proximity effect". It's an enhancement of low end above and beyond what's naturally there. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a problem sometimes on certain things.

One mic on one source with some proximity effect, no big deal.
Two mics...meh. Maybe a problem. Maybe not.
Three mics...it can start stacking up pretty bad.

You'll just have to get it in a mix and see. Against bass and kick drum, all that guitar low end might be a problem.

Gotcha. Ok i do hear that yes. I didn't know it had a name. And this sort of circles back to my question i asked in the other thread re: EQ'ing. I know enough to know that things can stack up and be detrimental which posed me asking the question of EQ a little out of each track, or EQ them as a sum of their parts. That was more for curing the nasal sound i was hearing. proximity effect wasn't even in my wheelhouse until just now but could possible still apply to the original question?

I read a bit about it as soon as you mentioned it and it sounds like it is an inescapable something that happens with any cardioid or directional microphone? I think in my mind the possible solution comes down to maybe backing mics off the cab a bit and let nature do it's thing? Am i thinking about that correctly? Assuming i want to continue to use more than one mic on a cab? Maybe that would do nothing? But if i recall my endless mic placement exercise on this cab i know when i was just using my 57 and had it backed off quite ways say an inch and half to two inches the sound smooths out, gets a bit thinner in the low end. Still had some guts just no OOMPH. Maybe i need to revisit that for the next song?

I should have a mix sans vocals thrown together in the next day or so for you guys to pick apart in the listening booth area so i can get an idea of how bad the proximity effect is on this. The only thing i forsee changing is maybe retracking that ugly left guitar and adding in the vocals. I can at least get mix feedback to get the ball rolling while i wait to do all that stuff. My drum mixing sucks bad so i will definitely need ears there.

Thanks dudes!

[Greg_L]

Gotcha. Ok i do hear that yes. I didn't know it had a name. And this sort of circles back to my question i asked in the other thread re: EQ'ing. I know enough to know that things can stack up and be detrimental which posed me asking the question of EQ a little out of each track, or EQ them as a sum of their parts. That was more for curing the nasal sound i was hearing. proximity effect wasn't even in my wheelhouse until just now but could possible still apply to the original question?

I read a bit about it as soon as you mentioned it and it sounds like it is an inescapable something that happens with any cardioid or directional microphone? I think in my mind the possible solution comes down to maybe backing mics off the cab a bit and let nature do it's thing? Am i thinking about that correctly? Assuming i want to continue to use more than one mic on a cab? Maybe that would do nothing? But if i recall my endless mic placement exercise on this cab i know when i was just using my 57 and had it backed off quite ways say an inch and half to two inches the sound smooths out, gets a bit thinner in the low end. Still had some guts just no OOMPH. Maybe i need to revisit that for the next song?

Thanks dudes!

Backing off could be a solution, but you can't really put back what isn't there.
Grouping and EQ'ing works.
Individually EQ'ing works.
It all works, you just need to decide what sounds the best for you.

Being super loud all the damn time I deal with proximity effect on everything. Know what I do about it? Nothing. On drums it's usually good. On bass...so what? Vocals, not much of a problem. But on panned rhythm guitars a new phenomenon rises up. Bass frequencies are usually naturally summed to the middle. It just seems like it lives there. Low frequencies are not as easy to shove around with panning. But...cram a guitar track way out to the side and the potentially troublesome low end rumble from proximity effect doesn't affect the track much, if any. If you do typical everyday LCR type panning, the low end in guitar tracks actually helps them sound fuller way way out to the sides. Move the guitar track(s) to the middle and then the low end is a problem. Move it back out wide...no problem.

So you just have to play with it and see. Don't worry about proximity effect. It happens. It's a byproduct of awesome loudness.

[WhiskeyJack]

@WhiskeyJack

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=044h_SAWnpU[/BBvideo]

This was good.

I didnt ever in my life expect to see that man hold a tele let along play and enjoy it. Haha.

Great documentary thingy.

[Greg_L]

I didnt ever in my life expect to see that man hold a tele let along play and enjoy it. Haha.

Great documentary thingy.

Right? He makes up for it with that Goldtop though.

[WhiskeyJack]

Absolutely. I thought it was interesting his thoughts about the wood and stuff on the older les Pauls versus the new stuff. I don't know how much truth there is in all of that but i never once considered his talking point ever. My wife was watching it with me and she sort of scoffed when he said he likes those specific gold top because they are affordable. She was like " not any time we've been out looking at goldtops would i ever consider them affordable"


He had a lot of cool stuff really. Some of those amps were pretty cool. I expected a lot of the old shit hoarding though. Some of his cars are just fantastic.

[Greg_L]

Absolutely. I thought it was interesting his thoughts about the wood and stuff on the older les Pauls versus the new stuff. I don't know how much truth there is in all of that but i never once considered his talking point ever. My wife was watching it with me and she sort of scoffed when he said he likes those specific gold top because they are affordable. She was like " not any time we've been out looking at goldtops would i ever consider them affordable"


He had a lot of cool stuff really. Some of those amps were pretty cool. I expected a lot of the old shit hoarding though. Some of his cars are just fantastic.

I'm not a believer in "tonewood". I never have been. But there is something to very old guitars that were built with wood that was already really old, like he pointed out. They have a feel and inherent sound that can't really be duplicated. I don't know if it's the wood. Maybe. Our modern guitars are a long way away from stuff like that, so it's kind of moot to even think about it IMO. Maybe in 60 years a 2000s Les Paul will be cherished for it's aged wood.

And yeah, a 70s Goldtop Deluxe being "affordable" is laughable. For him I'm sure they're all relatively affordable since he's in the punk rock millionaires club. But a $3000+ guitar is hardly affordable for us mere mortals. A guitar like that is a luxury.

I do wish he'd gone into his amp more though. That is not just any ol "Bassman". I know he won't reveal it's secrets, but talk about it a little more.

[Greg_L]

Lol. Look what I got on loan from a friend of mine.



I'm sure it has all the gain. Clips to come.

[Minerman]

Lol. Look what I got on loan from a friend of mine.



I'm sure it has all the gain. Clips to come.

Cool man, I wonder if it has as much gain as the little EVH amp I had???

I apologize for not being very active here dudes, I feel like I'm betraying you all (especially since I'm a founding member), but I do gotta admit I actually physically feel better now that I'm not staying online for hours on end...This could actually (and probably is) one of the things that started my health roller-coaster ride, so again, 'ol Miner says he's sorry...

But, I kept hearing about the Fortin/STL plugins, listening to clips, etc., & decided to try the Howard Benson STL demo...I'm actually impressed, it sounds pretty good for a plugin...I'll try to post some clips in the next day or so...

[rayc]

Good clips Shan.
Proximity effect - big thing when recording intimate vocals.
Some mics have LP & HP filter switches etc to deal with some of it.

[JD01]

Lol. Look what I got on loan from a friend of mine.



I'm sure it has all the gain. Clips to come.

Lol. That's pedal is like the Anti-Gerg! You'll have to give us some proper chugging metal riffage!

[Greg_L]

Lol. That's pedal is like the Anti-Gerg! You'll have to give us some proper chugging metal riffage!

I don't know any proper chugging metal riffage.

From what I've heard from people that have it, it's a good overdrive despite it's inherent visual and namesake cheesiness. But then again, I found the pedal - nearly brand new in it's own box - in a box of junk in the guy's garage while rifling through it looking for a microphone.

It's interesting that it has a noise gate built in. Like, how fucking noisy is this damn thing that they had to build in a gate?

I plan on trying it through a very clean setting on my DR build, and also with mild crunch base tone through one of the Marshalls. We shall see.

[JD01]

Lol. That's pedal is like the Anti-Gerg! You'll have to give us some proper chugging metal riffage!

I don't know any proper chugging metal riffage.

From what I've heard from people that have it, it's a good overdrive despite it's inherent visual and namesake cheesiness. But then again, I found the pedal - nearly brand new in it's own box - in a box of junk in the guy's garage while rifling through it looking for a microphone.

It's interesting that it has a noise gate built in. Like, how fucking noisy is this damn thing that they had to build in a gate?

I plan on trying it through a very clean setting on my DR build, and also with mild crunch base tone through one of the Marshalls. We shall see.

The noise gate is to help when you Djent.
You'll have to get into drop D.

It'll probably work great as an OD with plenty of control over the tone. You'll probably have to barely engage the gain knob though.

[JD01]

I don't think I listen to any bands that use 5150s actually. Most of them use Marshalls