The Tone Thread

[Minerman]

...Any of you wanna take a stab to say what you would do to re-create (sorta) this in the daw???

4 delays on an F/X channel, each set to different short delay times (that aren't multiples of each other), with the repeats & tone tweaked so the sound isn't too artificial, add a send from the guitar to that F/X, and adjust the volume of the f/x channel to taste.

(I can't claim having invented this technique; I read about it here: http://blog.presonus.com/index.php/2017 ... tudio-one/)

I read the article a couple times, but dunno how I'd do this exactly in Reaper...Interesting though, I've always been more a reverb guy than delay, so I suppose some experimentation is in order...

Please dudes, anyone with any ideas at all about these please jump in...

[JD01]

I think this sounds great myself, & around 1:10 or so, there's a room mic brought up in the mix, which to me, makes it sound even better...Any of you wanna take a stab to say what you would do to re-create (sorta) this in the daw???

I'd just automate the send to a reverb impulse.

[muttley]

Ok, here's one clip out of a few I mentioned about posting...While there's nothing special about the tone really, it does have a special place in my heart for several reasons, but anyway...

I think this is Mr. Ry Cooder:

Cooder Slide 3-3-2019.mp3

There's a lot of noise in this clip, mainly because it's from a movie (supposedly rain hitting a tin roof), so I apologize about the noise...

I think this sounds great myself, & around 1:10 or so, there's a room mic brought up in the mix, which to me, makes it sound even better...Any of you wanna take a stab to say what you would do to re-create (sorta) this in the daw???

I'll start with the usual & obvious: Fender-y guitar into a pretty loud Fender-y amp with some tremolo & 'verb added...I'd try a room reverb plugin instead of a room mic though, because my room would suck for this...

Anyone wanna play along here???

Definitely a single coil. I would experiment with that ripper, I can get the Cooder and Cale sounds pretty easily with the ones I have in my test bed strat and a Princeton (Cooder played through a vibroverb and Bassman when I saw him couldnt see the pups up close but looked mostly guyatone for the slide stuff). TBF that would be in the middle and bridge positions and you have it in the neck if I remember correctly.. maybe slit the bridge bucker and blend in the rail on full..? Definitely room reverb..

[muttley]

[mention]Minerman[/mention], I just called a mate who is a HUGE Cooder fan and gets his sound better than anyone I have ever seen. He has a p90 blade pickup I made for him that mimics a lapsteel pup. Apparently Cooder had one wound for his main guitar to pair up with the Guyatone pup he has in the neck of his Strat. My mate also said that other than the pickups the single most important thing you can do to get in the Cooder ball park is to use flatwound strings (makes sense to me). He recons if you can use a blade pup and round wound strings the rest is pretty easy with any number of small amps..

This link he sent me confirms all this. I will let the others advise on the DAW and stuff because they is all way above my current pay grade on that stuff, I'm years out of date...

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_uM4ykZ2hg[/BBvideo]

[Minerman]

I think this sounds great myself, & around 1:10 or so, there's a room mic brought up in the mix, which to me, makes it sound even better...Any of you wanna take a stab to say what you would do to re-create (sorta) this in the daw???

I'd just automate the send to a reverb impulse.

Thanks Jdude, that was my initial thought too...I'm sure the 4-delay trick Dan posted can get some pretty cool results, I may give both a shot...

[Minerman]

Definitely a single coil. I would experiment with that ripper, I can get the Cooder and Cale sounds pretty easily with the ones I have in my test bed strat and a Princeton (Cooder played through a vibroverb and Bassman when I saw him couldnt see the pups up close but looked mostly guyatone for the slide stuff). TBF that would be in the middle and bridge positions and you have it in the neck if I remember correctly.. maybe slit the bridge bucker and blend in the rail on full..? Definitely room reverb..

Thanks Mutt, the strat with your p'ups is definitely the closest thing I have to work with, guitar-wise...Stuff like this is a big reason I wanted those p'ups, lower-gain old-school tones...Of course it does the hair-metal thing I love, but I also love other kinds of music too, blues-based stuff like this is no exception...Years ago I cut my gigging teeth learning to play 3-chord/E-A-B songs on the spot in front of drunk rowdy rednecks at local bars, & this stuff has just always stuck with me over the years...

Minerman, I just called a mate who is a HUGE Cooder fan and gets his sound better than anyone I have ever seen. He has a p90 blade pickup I made for him that mimics a lapsteel pup. Apparently Cooder had one wound for his main guitar to pair up with the Guyatone pup he has in the neck of his Strat. My mate also said that other than the pickups the single most important thing you can do to get in the Cooder ball park is to use flatwound strings (makes sense to me). He recons if you can use a blade pup and round wound strings the rest is pretty easy with any number of small amps..

This link he sent me confirms all this. I will let the others advise on the DAW and stuff because they is all way above my current pay grade on that stuff, I'm years out of date...

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_uM4ykZ2hg[/BBvideo]

Thanks again Mutt...I've never tried flatwound strings, matter of fact, I don't think I've ever even saw any...I guess I'm gonna have to get a set & try 'em out to see what the difference is...

I actually watched that video a week or two ago, lots of interesting info about how he gets his tones...While I don't have a small amp similar to what he uses, I think the Chupacabra in "plexi" mode set pretty clean would be the closest that I have, since it's basically an old-school amp at it's core...

On the daw side of things, I've got all kinds of different reverb plugins, so I probably do have something I could make work, but of course, any suggestions from you Tone Tards are more than welcome...

[Bill L]

Definitely a single coil. I would experiment with that ripper, I can get the Cooder and Cale sounds pretty easily with the ones I have in my test bed strat and a Princeton (Cooder played through a vibroverb and Bassman when I saw him couldnt see the pups up close but looked mostly guyatone for the slide stuff). TBF that would be in the middle and bridge positions and you have it in the neck if I remember correctly.. maybe slit the bridge bucker and blend in the rail on full..? Definitely room reverb..

Thanks Mutt, the strat with your p'ups is definitely the closest thing I have to work with, guitar-wise...Stuff like this is a big reason I wanted those p'ups, lower-gain old-school tones...Of course it does the hair-metal thing I love, but I also love other kinds of music too, blues-based stuff like this is no exception...Years ago I cut my gigging teeth learning to play 3-chord/E-A-B songs on the spot in front of drunk rowdy rednecks at local bars, & this stuff has just always stuck with me over the years...

Minerman, I just called a mate who is a HUGE Cooder fan and gets his sound better than anyone I have ever seen. He has a p90 blade pickup I made for him that mimics a lapsteel pup. Apparently Cooder had one wound for his main guitar to pair up with the Guyatone pup he has in the neck of his Strat. My mate also said that other than the pickups the single most important thing you can do to get in the Cooder ball park is to use flatwound strings (makes sense to me). He recons if you can use a blade pup and round wound strings the rest is pretty easy with any number of small amps..

This link he sent me confirms all this. I will let the others advise on the DAW and stuff because they is all way above my current pay grade on that stuff, I'm years out of date...

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_uM4ykZ2hg[/BBvideo]

Thanks again Mutt...I've never tried flatwound strings, matter of fact, I don't think I've ever even saw any...I guess I'm gonna have to get a set & try 'em out to see what the difference is...

I actually watched that video a week or two ago, lots of interesting info about how he gets his tones...While I don't have a small amp similar to what he uses, I think the Chupacabra in "plexi" mode set pretty clean would be the closest that I have, since it's basically an old-school amp at it's core...

On the daw side of things, I've got all kinds of different reverb plugins, so I probably do have something I could make work, but of course, any suggestions from you Tone Tards are more than welcome...

Flatwounds are definitely the key. Lowell George and Paul Barrere from Little Feat also use flatwounds to get their distinctive sound. When I saw Little Feat last (a few months ago ) I asked Paul about his and Lowell's set up and he confirmed that and they use 2 compressors, 1 to squish the signal and the other for sustain (in his words, one pushing, one pulling). And since Lowell pretty much was taught how to play slide by Ry on Little Feat's first album, I imagine their set ups were very similar. I'll ask Barrere again when I see this Friday in NYC.

In the meantime, here's a great live video of Ry from the late 80's.

[BBvideo=560,315]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbtoXRFOwEc[/BBvideo]

[Minerman]

Flatwounds are definitely the key. Lowell George and Paul Barrere from Little Feat also use flatwounds to get their distinctive sound. When I saw Little Feat last (a few months ago ) I asked Paul about his and Lowell's set up and he confirmed that and they use 2 compressors, 1 to squish the signal and the other for sustain (in his words, one pushing, one pulling). And since Lowell pretty much was taught how to play slide by Ry on Little Feat's first album, I imagine their set ups were very similar. I'll ask Barrere again when I see this Friday in NYC.

In the meantime, here's a great live video of Ry from the late 80's.

[BBvideo=560,315]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbtoXRFOwEc[/BBvideo]

Awesome Bill, I did not know about the connection with Lowell George & Ry Cooder...

Isn't Lowell George the guy who uses a deepwell socket for a slide???

[muttley]

Awesome Bill, I did not know about the connection with Lowell George & Ry Cooder...

Isn't Lowell George the guy who uses a deepwell socket for a slide???

Its a bit of stretch to say that Cooder had a massive influence on Lowell George slide but they did work together on early stuff as well as a lot of other good slide players around at the time. They both had very different styles and techniques. Lowell George used a Strat with a tele pickup in the bridge mostly. For slides Yeh, he used wrench sockets. His reasoning was that he was always getting stuff nicked and he wanted to be able to replace stuff easily rather than have too much dependence on specific gear. He also used two MXR Dynacomps and an Alembic Stratoblaster in his chain.. He is prolly one of my favorite ever guitar players..

Flatwounds will reduce a lot of the scratch and will help with the smooth flowing style that Cooder had. I use flats on a load of my guitars, mostly the stuff I gig for Jazz, Blues and Soul/Funk stuff.. They aint cheap and expect to have to find a whole new world of tones to dial in. All your old go to settings will pretty much sound like mud but they are worth the effort if its specific tones you are after. Cooder's and Lowell George would be among them.

[Bill L]

Lowell cut up his left hand pretty badly while making a gas powered model airplane while recording their first album. The label, Warner Bros, had Ry come in and play on it. Lowell decided to start playing slide at that time so he could continue to contribute. He did 1 more album, Sailing Shoes, before expanding the band by adding Barrere, Sam Clayton on congas and Kenny Gradney on bass replacing Roy Estrada. He expanded the band so he could concentrate on singing and just playing slide rather than trying to fill the rythmn parts. Dixie Chicken came about because of the influence of the new members plus hanging out in New Orleans where he was hanging with The Meters and Allen Toussaint. That led to Lowell being asked to play on Robert Palmer's Sneaking Sally Through The Alley which covered one of Lowell's songs to open the album. And it changed Feats because of it. After Palmer's first album, all members of Little Feat contributed to Palmer's albums up to Riptide. So basically it was Ry's influence that got him started on slide and the Toussaint and Meters connection that changed the style of the band.

He used a Craftsman 11/16 deep socket, allgedly because he kept breaking glass ones. Then he started joking in interviews that if he ever broke the socket Craftsman would replace it free of charge. I think Barrere still uses a socket but a different size.

[Bill L]

Here's a pic of Barrere (one I took from Sept 2017 at The Rhythm and Roots Festival in RI playing with The New Orleans Suspects). And that looks like a Craftsman slide to me. As I said, I'll be seeing the band on Friday and I'll ask him about the Lowell stuff and what slide he uses now.

Paul004.jpg

[muttley]

Lowell cut up his left hand pretty badly while making a gas powered model airplane while recording their first album. The label, Warner Bros, had Ry come in and play on it. Lowell decided to start playing slide at that time so he could continue to contribute. He did 1 more album, Sailing Shoes, before expanding the band by adding Barrere, Sam Clayton on congas and Kenny Gradney on bass replacing Roy Estrada. He expanded the band so he could concentrate on singing and just playing slide rather than trying to fill the rythmn parts. Dixie Chicken came about because of the influence of the new members plus hanging out in New Orleans where he was hanging with The Meters and Allen Toussaint. That led to Lowell being asked to play on Robert Palmer's Sneaking Sally Through The Alley which covered one of Lowell's songs to open the album. And it changed Feats because of it. After Palmer's first album, all members of Little Feat contributed to Palmer's albums up to Riptide. So basically it was Ry's influence that got him started on slide and the Toussaint and Meters connection that changed the style of the band.

He used a Craftsman 11/16 deep socket, allgedly because he kept breaking glass ones. Then he started joking in interviews that if he ever broke the socket Craftsman would replace it free of charge. I think Barrere still uses a socket but a different size.

Yeh, thats the TDPRI potted version, but its a little too "pretty" for me. Problem is Lowell George was playing slide and rhythm with Zappa and the Mothers and also with Little Feat who grabbed a bunch of guys from the Mothers when they started out. Yeh, Cooder was called in to play slide when he bust his hand but George was already playing slide a lot by them and had in the past, he also shared the slide work on that album. Cooder was an influence but he definitely did not turn Lowell George into a slide player... In his early years he was a massive fan of both West Coast Jazz and the Blues guitar players that had largely been ignored by American youth culture back then. He undoubtedly came across slide playing then. He played a shit load of instruments well. I'm a huge fan of both George and Cooder BTW also Zappa. You mention the Meters, them too..

[WhiskeyJack]

here i got a few tones up for autopsy.

this was a bit of an experiment with getting use to the room and now being in the same room as the cab. Bit of an adjustment but its for the best. trying to get a good tone from a cab in another room is difficult if you are by yourself. Excuse this playing, it was more an exercise of tone capturing tweaking with two mics versus making sure i was playing perfectly. (Read: I suck and i am ok with it, but unfortunate for you lot )

this was the best i got. as usual this amp is just thick and woolly and even at this point what i feel to be the best is still too wooly. I liejk the way it sounds in the room. So i am chalking it up to it maybe being possibly too loud or just not ideal mic placement.

All amp settings are the same:

Master = 5
treble = 7
Mid = 7
bass = 6
gain = 5

It switches from open chords to some palm muting and chugging around 0:29

LP Jr Bridge P90 > AD30 > V30 > SM57 about an inch off the grille just outside the cap on the cone.

20190313 Lp Orange 57.mp3

LP Jr Bridge P90 > AD30 > V30 > e906 about an inch and a bit off the grille little bit over the cap rest over the cone. maybe? hard ot tell with that e906 but i suppose that's what the logo is for on the back of the mic.

20190313 Lp Orange 906.mp3

And both those blended together this is a little louder than the other two so turn down if you want

20190313 Lp Orange 57-906.mp3

I know i have alot of room for improvement. But i am just looking to know if anyone else hears the wool and darkness? How can i bring i bit of life and snap into this. I think i am going to try turning down a little bit maybe and see if i can open it up a little. it just doesn't feel like it is breathing or alive?

[Greg_L]

here i got a few tones up for autopsy.

Dude there's nothing wrong with those clips. They're definitely not dark or wooly. They're thick but they have plenty of top end...and a lot of meat. I think they sound cool...like a pissed off raging Orange amp normally sounds. Put that shit in a mix and I bet it sounds killer.

[WhiskeyJack]

here i got a few tones up for autopsy.

Dude there's nothing wrong with those clips. They're definitely not dark or wooly. They're thick but they have plenty of top end...and a lot of meat. I think they sound cool...like a pissed off raging Orange amp normally sounds. Put that shit in a mix and I bet it sounds killer.

Thanks. Maybe the increased volume of the blended track was playing tricks on my ears? I really prefer that blend to either of the other two tracks on their own. maybe i just sat and listened to them for too long and it just sounded squashed to my ears? Worst case it may need a bit of a shelf put in it when the bass get's added to it or whatever?

[Greg_L]

Thanks. Maybe the increased volume of the blended track was playing tricks on my ears? I really prefer that blend to either of the other two tracks on their own. maybe i just sat and listened to them for too long and it just sounded squashed to my ears? Worst case it may need a bit of a shelf put in it when the bass get's added to it or whatever?

Maybe to all of that.

What I usually do with dual-mic tracks is have one bright and one darker. The juggle between those two is how I "EQ" the guitars. Usually either track by itself is too bright or too dark, but blended together they make a more full and accurate sonic picture of what the amp really sounds like instead of a pinpoint capture of one mic on one spot. Then in the mix it's just a matter of deciding which mic is going to do the bulk of the work and having the other one supplement it. It's not very often that I stay with a totally equal 50/50 blend of the two tracks. One is usually more prominent than the other.

What you did was good but it was basically two equal bright tracks, just with different mics. IMO a good practice trick, if you wanna try it, is go totally bright with one mic and totally dark with the other. Put one mic dead center on the speaker and the other somewhere out on the cone. You'll most likely get unusable extremes of each type, but blended you can see how they really interact and how making one just act as support for the other, it all comes together.

[WhiskeyJack]

Thanks. Maybe the increased volume of the blended track was playing tricks on my ears? I really prefer that blend to either of the other two tracks on their own. maybe i just sat and listened to them for too long and it just sounded squashed to my ears? Worst case it may need a bit of a shelf put in it when the bass get's added to it or whatever?

Maybe to all of that.

What I usually do with dual-mic tracks is have one bright and one darker. The juggle between those two is how I "EQ" the guitars. Usually either track by itself is too bright or too dark, but blended together they make a more full and accurate sonic picture of what the amp really sounds like instead of a pinpoint capture of one mic on one spot. Then in the mix it's just a matter of deciding which mic is going to do the bulk of the work and having the other one supplement it. It's not very often that I stay with a totally equal 50/50 blend of the two tracks. One is usually more prominent than the other.

What you did was good but it was basically two equal bright tracks, just with different mics. IMO a good practice trick, if you wanna try it, is go totally bright with one mic and totally dark with the other. Put one mic dead center on the speaker and the other somewhere out on the cone. You'll most likely get unusable extremes of each type, but blended you can see how they really interact and how making one just act as support for the other, it all comes together.

That Makes total sense Greg, thanks. yes i am up for it, i'll give it a go. I knew i have heard it discussed here a couple time to try and grab different sonic qualities of a cab/speaker so shame on me i guess. I approached form the angle of get a goodish sound from each mic and then stick them on top of each other. I will definitely give it a try.

When you do dual a mic do you mic the same speaker or do you spread it around the cab ? In this instance i have two separate speakers mic'd. i don't think it would really would make much difference at all really beyond, like you noted, a bigger sonic picture of the cab itself maybe? I am still having a hard time pinning down a cable (at a reasonable price) for that Unidyne 544 mic i picked up. If i knew the thing worked it i wouldn't think twice about shelling out for some of the stuff i have come across, but i just want to make sure it does work first.

[Minerman]

here i got a few tones up for autopsy.

this was a bit of an experiment with getting use to the room and now being in the same room as the cab. Bit of an adjustment but its for the best. trying to get a good tone from a cab in another room is difficult if you are by yourself. Excuse this playing, it was more an exercise of tone capturing tweaking with two mics versus making sure i was playing perfectly. (Read: I suck and i am ok with it, but unfortunate for you lot )

this was the best i got. as usual this amp is just thick and woolly and even at this point what i feel to be the best is still too wooly. I liejk the way it sounds in the room. So i am chalking it up to it maybe being possibly too loud or just not ideal mic placement.

All amp settings are the same:

Master = 5
treble = 7
Mid = 7
bass = 6
gain = 5

I know i have alot of room for improvement. But i am just looking to know if anyone else hears the wool and darkness? How can i bring i bit of life and snap into this. I think i am going to try turning down a little bit maybe and see if i can open it up a little. it just doesn't feel like it is breathing or alive?

Shan, there's nothing wrong with these clips dude, nothing at all...I hear the Orange dna all over these & these clips give me a much better idea of what an Orange amp actually sounds like...I've bashed EL84 amps for a long time now because the EVH LBX I had wasn't what I was after, & I've lumped all EL84 amps into one category...These clips prove me wrong, there's nothing "farty" or "flubby" at all with these clips dude, so you've opened my eyes to the truth...I'd be proud to have guitar tracks like these on anything...Well done...

Thick, throaty lower-mids with some great high-end is what I hear...Different from the usual Marshall-y stuff I puke out here, so again, well done...You've just put Orange back on my amp radar...

We all have room for improvement dude, that's why we're here, but again, there's nothing wrong with these clips...I use 1 mic most of the time just because it's a lot easier, but blending them like in the last clip will open up a bunch of possibilities that just weren't there with one mic, like you could automate the blend to bring the guitars out in the mix for a certain part (IE: bring up the "dark" mic during a chorus could give that part more punch/oomph), plus 1,000,000 more possibilities...

Greg has his techniques pretty much down to a science, but you gotta remember he does this stuff plus more (I think he records/mixes other bands now along with his usual Crank Case buddies), on a daily basis...But, your guitar tracks hold their own too man, so don't think otherwise...

[WhiskeyJack]

Shan, there's nothing wrong with these clips dude, nothing at all...I hear the Orange dna all over these & these clips give me a much better idea of what an Orange amp actually sounds like...I've bashed EL84 amps for a long time now because the EVH LBX I had wasn't what I was after, & I've lumped all EL84 amps into one category...These clips prove me wrong, there's nothing "farty" or "flubby" at all with these clips dude, so you've opened my eyes to the truth...I'd be proud to have guitar tracks like these on anything...Well done...

Thick, throaty lower-mids with some great high-end is what I hear...Different from the usual Marshall-y stuff I puke out here, so again, well done...You've just put Orange back on my amp radar...

We all have room for improvement dude, that's why we're here, but again, there's nothing wrong with these clips...I use 1 mic most of the time just because it's a lot easier, but blending them like in the last clip will open up a bunch of possibilities that just weren't there with one mic, like you could automate the blend to bring the guitars out in the mix for a certain part (IE: bring up the "dark" mic during a chorus could give that part more punch/oomph), plus 1,000,000 more possibilities...

Greg has his techniques pretty much down to a science, but you gotta remember he does this stuff plus more (I think he records/mixes other bands now along with his usual Crank Case buddies), on a daily basis...But, your guitar tracks hold their own too man, so don't think otherwise...

Thanks Miner. glad you got your orange flavor back lol. I have been making a point to listen to more and more artists that use them and there are some out there that can really hide that orange flavor in their tones and you'd never know. Then there are others where it just smacks of Orange.

I can probably grab you a farty and flubby EL84 tone with this guy pretty easily. it starts to get that way when i start to push that master past 5.5 and above. it can be cured a little bit by dialing back then gain a bit but then it just starts to lose some balls and some of the sustain i like to have around. But i have a wealth of farty and flubby tones this thing has given me if you wanted to hear them lol.

Also I don't know if you recall my thread where i showed how the Subtractive EQ knobs work on this but they are really really touchy and seem to really lean on each other quite a bit. more so than any amp i have ever used in the past. That bass knob seems to be the dad of the overall tone on this guy. nothing really sounds right till you get that guy sorted out and in a happy place.

Well this is good. I'll finish up all my covers and get them up in here soon and then start the new recording challenge. i think i am going to make more me time and participate in that one.

[Greg_L]

When you do dual a mic do you mic the same speaker or do you spread it around the cab ? In this instance i have two separate speakers mic'd. i don't think it would really would make much difference at all really beyond, like you noted, a bigger sonic picture of the cab itself maybe?

Not really. I usually just stay on the same speaker. I sometimes blend different types of speakers, but if I'm just focused on one speaker I'll usually just mic that one.

You don't really get a "bigger picture" unless you're using room mics, true stereo techniques, or some DAW trickery. Even if you have different speakers in one cab, spreading mics around don't really make the sound "bigger". One guy playing one guitar through one amp into one cab is usually best treated as a mono take unless you add or do things to make it stereo. Basically, when you're close miking a cab, you're usually using it for a single track. Even if you've got multiple mics to get a fuller sound from one speaker, or if you spread mics around different speakers in one cab, it's still gonna usually be summed together to mono as a capture of one take. You need to get into room miking to make that one take sound bigger. The mono performance is ground zero for the whole thing.

And even if you did get into all that, for the punk rock and roll type music that guys like you and me usually do, we hard pan the guitar tracks anyway. There's not much point in getting a bunch of big spacious sounds when you just cram them into the corners anyway. Almost every time I've used room mics on blazing rock and roll guitar tracks I've ended up leaving them turned off anyway. The close mic hyperfocused sound is usually what we're after for our kind of stuff.

I've done some wet/dry/wet stereo amp miking....and it's a real pain in the dick.