The Tone Thread

[Greg_L]

@Greg_L and @JD01 , thanks for the feedback. I agree the BA sounds the worst of the two but I kind of set it up to be a bit more harsh, though it is on its own a bit anyways.

But, here is a 100% pan on those guitars.

Yeah that's the way to pan a mix like that. Wider is better for that kind of thing.

[WhiskeyJack]

[mention]liv_rong[/mention] that is a rad little track. Your tones are really cool. probably your best dirties i have heard you plop in yet.

I am listening at work on my ear buds and i am noticing something interesting with the panning exercise.

So in livs first mix where it is panned at 38% the bass is really really holding up the guitars in a way that my ears really really liked. Everything was pretty full sounding and the marriage was great. But as the mixes progressed and started to move outward closer to 100, that marriage became less distinct and while the mix sounded fuller the guitars sounded a little more thinner then they did at 38%

#rememberiamonearbuds

[mention]JD01[/mention] [mention]Greg_L[/mention] [mention]Minerman[/mention] what is the audio illusion i am hearing here? i wish we could really take a screen shot of how we hear something.

In my days of learning from other people or seeing other peoples mixing techniques i have seen some folks who do not double track have one good recorded track then use a delay trick on a single track to have it set up to do one delay panned really low in the mix and between 25 to 35% on the opposite side of the main track. So for lives right guitar he'd set a delay of that track to ping once 12bd lower or whatever 25% left of centre.

Does that make sense to anyone? I never quite understood that technique up until now. But i could totally see how that could assist in gluing the bass to the guitars a bit better while fattening up the guitars slightly. Although i don't know that i agree with the opposite side pan. I think if i were to attempt it i'd have the the one guitar 95% l and the delayed track on the same side somewhere where ever it fit. If i did the opposite side i think it would make an ugly stereo image?

[Greg_L]

@liv_rong that is a rad little track. Your tones are really cool. probably your best dirties i have heard you plop in yet.

I am listening at work on my ear buds and i am noticing something interesting with the panning exercise.

So in livs first mix where it is panned at 38% the bass is really really holding up the guitars in a way that my ears really really liked. Everything was pretty full sounding and the marriage was great. But as the mixes progressed and started to move outward closer to 100, that marriage became less distinct and while the mix sounded fuller the guitars sounded a little more thinner then they did at 38%

#rememberiamonearbuds

I think you were enjoying some masking. Remember, bass frequencies are pretty uncaring about where they're panned. They'll show up anywhere. So liv had two guitar tracks also sharing space near the center with all that bass. The low ends kind of melted together into one. As you spread the guitars out of that bass heavy zone they can all sort of start to stand by themselves and you can really hear what everything is doing much more clearly. That may be good or bad. The beauty of hard panning guitars, besides the width, is you can be a lot less picky about tones. A little spiky, a little woofy...it matters less when they're way out wide. It'll still sound like guitars out there. Like liv's Black Ash track. Sounds kind of harsh and assy by itself, but put it out wide in a mix and it all works fine. The flipside is you gotta have the stuff in the middle on point because it's loud and clear without the wash of guitars mucking it up.

@JD01 @Greg_L @Minerman what is the audio illusion i am hearing here? i wish we could really take a screen shot of how we hear something.

In my days of learning from other people or seeing other peoples mixing techniques i have seen some folks who do not double track have one good recorded track then use a delay trick on a single track to have it set up to do one delay panned really low in the mix and between 25 to 35% on the opposite side of the main track. So for lives right guitar he'd set a delay of that track to ping once 12bd lower or whatever 25% left of centre.

Does that make sense to anyone? I never quite understood that technique up until now. But i could totally see how that could assist in gluing the bass to the guitars a bit better while fattening up the guitars slightly. Although i don't know that i agree with the opposite side pan. I think if i were to attempt it i'd have the the one guitar 95% l and the delayed track on the same side somewhere where ever it fit. If i did the opposite side i think it would make an ugly stereo image?

If you really wanna fudge stereo out of a mono track you should do more than just delay and pan. I think the best way to do it is with pitch shifting and time shifting.

[Minerman]

A wider pan mix for Minerman, at 60% now.

Neither is better or worse dude, the panning thing is a personal preference, but can have a huge impact of the whole shebang (you obviously know this dude, just sayin')...I like em' all, but the 1st & 2nd have more rawness to me, so it's a toss-up between those 2...

[Minerman]

I am listening at work on my ear buds and i am noticing something interesting with the panning exercise.

So in livs first mix where it is panned at 38% the bass is really really holding up the guitars in a way that my ears really really liked. Everything was pretty full sounding and the marriage was great. But as the mixes progressed and started to move outward closer to 100, that marriage became less distinct and while the mix sounded fuller the guitars sounded a little more thinner then they did at 38%

#rememberiamonearbuds

JD01 Greg_L Minerman what is the audio illusion i am hearing here? i wish we could really take a screen shot of how we hear something.

Well dude, I'm terrible at explaining things, & even more so at something I struggle with myself...What I think is happening is the low end of the narrower panned guitars is blending with the bass more, giving the illusion of weight/heft/chunk...The farther out the guitars are panned, the more they're separated from the bass/middle/center & it loses the weight/heft/chunk...

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my opinion...

And FWIW, I listen on earbuds or headphones 90% of the time...

[mention]Greg_L[/mention] beat me to the punch here, but we're both saying about the same thing...

[Minerman]

In my days of learning from other people or seeing other peoples mixing techniques i have seen some folks who do not double track have one good recorded track then use a delay trick on a single track to have it set up to do one delay panned really low in the mix and between 25 to 35% on the opposite side of the main track. So for lives right guitar he'd set a delay of that track to ping once 12bd lower or whatever 25% left of centre.

Does that make sense to anyone? I never quite understood that technique up until now. But i could totally see how that could assist in gluing the bass to the guitars a bit better while fattening up the guitars slightly. Although i don't know that i agree with the opposite side pan. I think if i were to attempt it i'd have the the one guitar 95% l and the delayed track on the same side somewhere where ever it fit. If i did the opposite side i think it would make an ugly stereo image?

If you're trying to get a stereo spread from a single track, I really don't have much to offer dude...I'm sure it can & has been done, but I've just always been a fan of double-tracking my guitars since I started recording in 2009...This is highly subjective & a personal preference thing...

I've tried the "copy/paste" thing, & the results I got sucked, YMMV...Using a delay or doubling plugin can sound good, & may be a better choice than the "copy/paste" thing, but double-tracking (2 different takes) is how I usually record my guitars: gtr 1 = L, gtr 2 = R

I have quad-tracked for some things like: gtr 1 & 2 = L, gtr 3 & 4 =R, but it can get messy sounding unless all 4 takes are really tight...

Another thing I've tried is 3 guitars: gtr 1 = L, gtr 2 = R, gtr 3 = C, with the center guitar kinda low in the mix, but using automation to bring it up/down in spots I was trying to accent or give more "oomph" like a chorus or guitar solo...

So, all this brings up how to pan guitars, which is something I've wondered about for a long time...I'm a big fan of how AC-DC's guitars are panned & the subtle use of room mics on a lot of their albums...The album "For Those About To Rock" pops into my head when I think about this...I don't know exactly how this is achieved, but it sounds like each guitar is panned around 70%, with the room mic around 40% the opposite...

• Angus' guitar = 70% L, room mic = 40% R

• Malcolm's guitar = 70% R, room mic 40% L...

The guitars on these albums do not sound 100% hard panned to me, but they very well could be, & with the room mic(s), it just sounds that way...
Another guitar sound I love is the EVH thing...To me, the guitar doesn't sound 100% panned to one side...It may be & the fx/reverb is giving that illusion, but to me the guitar on those albums sound like they are panned around 70 - 80%...

I've tried to simulate this by using reverbs, but I just can't get it to sound natural...Of course, the gear used on those albums are mega-expensive, & I should still be able to get a lot closer, but no such luck...

What do you guys think about all this???

[Greg_L]

I don't think all this panning stuff matters that much. It does matter some, of course, panning can be a creative decision or a practical decision, but in the days of listening to music on actual speakers, you had no idea how much or not much things are panned. It wasn't until we all started using near field monitors and jamming speaker boogers into our ears that panning really started to be discussed and diagnosed. Lots of stuff in the 60s had the entire drum kit panned to one side and a bunch of whatever on the other. You didn't know though unless you listened on headphones. Out in space with speakers blaring...the way people used to listen to music..... it all blended together just fine.

First Ramones album. Bass hard panned to one side, guitar on the other.
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1BOsSh ... FSOPXXyCGB[/BBvideo]

I listened to this record twenty billion times before I realized that it was panned that way. It only sounds goofy on headphones. Out in space, it rocks. In fact, it wasn't until I made a cassette tape of my record and one of the channels didn't copy that I realized that it's panned the way it's panned. I was like "WTF why am I only hearing bass"? After some exploration I realized it's all bass on one side, all guitar on the other, just like their live stage setup.

[liv_rong]

@liv_rong that is a rad little track. Your tones are really cool. probably your best dirties i have heard you plop in yet.

I am listening at work on my ear buds and i am noticing something interesting with the panning exercise.

So in livs first mix where it is panned at 38% the bass is really really holding up the guitars in a way that my ears really really liked. Everything was pretty full sounding and the marriage was great. But as the mixes progressed and started to move outward closer to 100, that marriage became less distinct and while the mix sounded fuller the guitars sounded a little more thinner then they did at 38%

#rememberiamonearbuds

@JD01 @Greg_L @Minerman what is the audio illusion i am hearing here? i wish we could really take a screen shot of how we hear something.

In my days of learning from other people or seeing other peoples mixing techniques i have seen some folks who do not double track have one good recorded track then use a delay trick on a single track to have it set up to do one delay panned really low in the mix and between 25 to 35% on the opposite side of the main track. So for lives right guitar he'd set a delay of that track to ping once 12bd lower or whatever 25% left of centre.

Does that make sense to anyone? I never quite understood that technique up until now. But i could totally see how that could assist in gluing the bass to the guitars a bit better while fattening up the guitars slightly. Although i don't know that i agree with the opposite side pan. I think if i were to attempt it i'd have the the one guitar 95% l and the delayed track on the same side somewhere where ever it fit. If i did the opposite side i think it would make an ugly stereo image?

That seems pretty interesting to me. I'm going to mess around with panning a bit more in the future and the delay thing sounds cool. I have some ideas, Ill post more later.

[liv_rong]

Also, for this last thing I posted each instrument is all one take all the way through. Is this how you guys do it? I kind of got used to doing the most I could out of a take because I typically use so many different effects. It does make things take longer though because one tiny flub and I trash it and start over. I guess I shouldnt worry so much about that shit for little things like this, but it seems all I ever do is little things like this just thrown together.

Anyways, I greatly appreciate your guys feedback, it is incredibly helpful! It's really nice to have this place to bounce things around because otherwise no one would hear it. The other place no one really records anymore and it really is a shame. You guys help keep me motivated because I know there are others out there just doing it and having fun, the way it should be.

[Greg_L]

Also, for this last thing I posted each instrument is all one take all the way through. Is this how you guys do it? I kind of got used to doing the most I could out of a take because I typically use so many different effects. It does make things take longer though because one tiny flub and I trash it and start over. I guess I shouldnt worry so much about that shit for little things like this, but it seems all I ever do is little things like this just thrown together.

Anyways, I greatly appreciate your guys feedback, it is incredibly helpful! It's really nice to have this place to bounce things around because otherwise no one would hear it. The other place no one really records anymore and it really is a shame. You guys help keep me motivated because I know there are others out there just doing it and having fun, the way it should be.

I do everything in one take as much as I can. I feel like I can hear the continuity on my own crap. Does anyone else? Probably not, but I just feel better that way. And nothing I do is so technical that I can't just do it. If I'm flubbing a bunch of stuff I need to rethink things.

A few punch ins don't bother me though.

[WhiskeyJack]

Thanks [mention]Greg_L[/mention] & [mention]Minerman[/mention] What you explained does make a lot of sense. And i listened again last night quickly on my monitors before going back to work and it while [mention]liv_rong[/mention]s tone itself in the 38% panned one still sounded favorable to my ears, if there were vocals in there it would sound very crowded.

Anyways thanks for the explanation!

[Minerman]

I'm putting some clips together & will post 'em in the next few days...Some are my tones, some aren't, some you might recognize, some you might not...But I wanna see what some of you might try to achieve a certain tone/sound...

I guess this has as much or more to do with production/daw trickery than getting actual "base" tones like we usually do here, using effects/panning/whatever...

Again, I'm curious to hear some things you guys might or might not try & learn in the process...I've wondered about stuff like this for a long time now, so what the fuck???

More to come...

[Minerman]

Ok, here's one clip out of a few I mentioned about posting...While there's nothing special about the tone really, it does have a special place in my heart for several reasons, but anyway...

I think this is Mr. Ry Cooder:

Cooder Slide 3-3-2019.mp3

There's a lot of noise in this clip, mainly because it's from a movie (supposedly rain hitting a tin roof), so I apologize about the noise...

I think this sounds great myself, & around 1:10 or so, there's a room mic brought up in the mix, which to me, makes it sound even better...Any of you wanna take a stab to say what you would do to re-create (sorta) this in the daw???

I'll start with the usual & obvious: Fender-y guitar into a pretty loud Fender-y amp with some tremolo & 'verb added...I'd try a room reverb plugin instead of a room mic though, because my room would suck for this...

Anyone wanna play along here???

[Greg_L]

Ok, here's one clip out of a few I mentioned about posting...While there's nothing special about the tone really, it does have a special place in my heart for several reasons, but anyway...

I think this is Mr. Ry Cooder:

Cooder Slide 3-3-2019.mp3

There's a lot of noise in this clip, mainly because it's from a movie (supposedly rain hitting a tin roof), so I apologize about the noise...

I think this sounds great myself, & around 1:10 or so, there's a room mic brought up in the mix, which to me, makes it sound even better...Any of you wanna take a stab to say what you would do to re-create (sorta) this in the daw???

I'll start with the usual & obvious: Fender-y guitar into a pretty loud Fender-y amp with some tremolo & 'verb added...I'd try a room reverb plugin instead of a room mic though, because my room would suck for this...

Anyone wanna play along here???

I have no idea what I'd do to recreate that. That style of playing and tone is completely foreign to me. I've never even tried a slide or the alternate tunings that go along with it.

But anyway, yeah it seems like a "hot" clean with a lot of room when it comes in. I'm not sure that's a "Fendery" guitar. It could be a P90 or maybe even a mild humbucker because it's not very noisy.

[JD01]

What's the new avatar, Greg?

[Greg_L]

What's the new avatar, Greg?

Mardi Gras masks. It's that time of year. Mardi Gras is Tuesday.

[JD01]

Ah. Cool. You doing anything fun?

[Minerman]

What's the new avatar, Greg?

Yes, do tell...

Edit: Nevermind, saw you answered Jdude...

I have no idea what I'd do to recreate that. That style of playing and tone is completely foreign to me. I've never even tried a slide or the alternate tunings that go along with it.

But anyway, yeah it seems like a "hot" clean with a lot of room when it comes in. I'm not sure that's a "Fendery" guitar. It could be a P90 or maybe even a mild humbucker because it's not very noisy.

To me, it sounds like a tele using the neck p'up...It could be a blend of neck & bridge though...It just has a "twang" I associate with Fender-y guitars...It could just sound like a tele because that's what I've seen in the movie all these years too...

To me, this sounds like an amp being pushed, getting the power tubes & speaker involved, with a lot of room sound...

Like I mentioned, my room isn't ideal for this sorta thing, but maybe that'll change eventually...

Have you ever experimented with room mics on anything like this at all dude???

[Greg_L]

Ah. Cool. You doing anything fun?

Nah not really. Texas doesn't do Mardi Gras very well. It's just in my DNA from being a New Orleans native.

Have you ever experimented with room mics on anything like this at all dude???

Yeah but not too often. That kind of sound is not something that fits my style usually. The front entryway of my house is really good for big giant room sound but I very rarely utilize it.

[SweetDan]

...Any of you wanna take a stab to say what you would do to re-create (sorta) this in the daw???

4 delays on an F/X channel, each set to different short delay times (that aren't multiples of each other), with the repeats & tone tweaked so the sound isn't too artificial, add a send from the guitar to that F/X, and adjust the volume of the f/x channel to taste.

(I can't claim having invented this technique; I read about it here: http://blog.presonus.com/index.php/2017 ... tudio-one/)