The Tone Thread

[JD01]

Thanks for the detail listen & feedback. I'll get onto it tomorrow.

Yeah, before you get too stuck in, let Greg, Miner or Armistice have a listen. They may well be able to put a better description to what I'm hearing.

[muttley]

Ok dudes, here are a couple clips of the Mini Jubilee...I posted the mix clip so you can hear the guitars in context...

Using the i5 & e609, both tracks are the same volume...No effects at all on the guitars...

Strat HB > Mini Jubilee > G12H > e609 & i5

• Presence:..............7
  Bass:...................5
  Middle:.................4
  Treble:.................6
  Output Master:.......10
  Lead Master:.........10
  Input Gain:............2

Mini Jubilee guitars only 12-18-2018.mp3

Mini Jubilee mix #2 12-18-2018.mp3


Lemme know what you think...

Hey miner, when you say Start HB... is that the Hard Rail? Just asking. Sounds killer to me man, that boxy sound is part of the deal for me on that... Lose it and it would just go all meh...

[muttley]

I was fairly happy with the guitar tones on my last two songs. Both were the product of LOUD amps and I seem to be comeing to terms with my semi Superlead.
yesterday I found, in a bunch of old papers, the lyrics and chords to a song I wrote in 1978. No melody, no recordings - I was writing a Rock opera with a collaborator for a special assignment in our last year of Teacher's College.
By doiong a "book" lyrics/chords/melody sheets we would have been able to skip an entire subject for the final semester. Sadly my mate ended up with cold feet so the songs we'd started went into a folder for 40 years.
I found the stuff - found one song that clearly was my work as the chords were the only ones I knew at the time so i decided to start recording it.
1st draft is at 150 bpm as I'm TRYING to avoid mid paced rock for a bit. I decided to skip the sonic reducer weapon of superloud superlead and am trying for a more "breaking up" tone of power pop. I think 150 may be too fast though.
BUTTTTT
I've having a hell of a time getting a decent bass tone of late.
I tried round & flat wound strings, moving away from 1st position etc but it comes out weak and annoying.
Don't Come To Me19.mp3
Thoughts & suggestions?

To me the bass is just flubby. The attack is all oomph and it doenst drive on note to note. It almost sounds like its being blown out the window. I wouldnt know what the solution would be but I'm sure others will.. I do know that flat wound are not gonna help. That woolly sound is what they are best at. Most players that use flat wounds have a technique that allows the note to ring on that would mostly be on a fretless..

[Greg_L]

Ok dudes, here are a couple clips of the Mini Jubilee...I posted the mix clip so you can hear the guitars in context...

Using the i5 & e609, both tracks are the same volume...No effects at all on the guitars...

Strat HB > Mini Jubilee > G12H > e609 & i5

• Presence:..............7
  Bass:...................5
  Middle:.................4
  Treble:.................6
  Output Master:.......10
  Lead Master:.........10
  Input Gain:............2

Mini Jubilee guitars only 12-18-2018.mp3

Mini Jubilee mix #2 12-18-2018.mp3


Lemme know what you think...

I do kind of hear the "nasal" thing you were talking about. It sounds like the guitars are high passed too high. In the mix they aren't bad at all though. But they could be fuller.

[Greg_L]

I was fairly happy with the guitar tones on my last two songs. Both were the product of LOUD amps and I seem to be comeing to terms with my semi Superlead.
yesterday I found, in a bunch of old papers, the lyrics and chords to a song I wrote in 1978. No melody, no recordings - I was writing a Rock opera with a collaborator for a special assignment in our last year of Teacher's College.
By doiong a "book" lyrics/chords/melody sheets we would have been able to skip an entire subject for the final semester. Sadly my mate ended up with cold feet so the songs we'd started went into a folder for 40 years.
I found the stuff - found one song that clearly was my work as the chords were the only ones I knew at the time so i decided to start recording it.
1st draft is at 150 bpm as I'm TRYING to avoid mid paced rock for a bit. I decided to skip the sonic reducer weapon of superloud superlead and am trying for a more "breaking up" tone of power pop. I think 150 may be too fast though.
BUTTTTT
I've having a hell of a time getting a decent bass tone of late.
I tried round & flat wound strings, moving away from 1st position etc but it comes out weak and annoying.
Don't Come To Me19.mp3
Thoughts & suggestions?

I think it sounds pretty good Ray. I like the bass tone. I got no problem with it. If you want it to jump more, look at ReaEQ and select the "rock bass" preset...or something like that. See if that makes it snarl and pop more and then you'll know where your frequencies need help.

The kick is kind of buried. Woofy. I hear the energy in the kick but it's not driving the low end along like it should with a power-pop mix. Needs more definition.

The guitars to me are too washy. I think you need an....ahem....Strat for this.
I can hear those driving jangly powerpop tones you're looking for being just right for this. I've stumbled on to that sound with my homebuild Deluxe Reverb and a Strat. If you want some guitar tracks like that, I'm happy to do them. Just let me know Gimme a few weeks or a day when the wife leaves the house. She's at home over the holidays. No drums or amp cranking going on over here for now.

[Minerman]

Miner. Those tones are pretty fucking pro. In fact, all the stuff you've posted lately has basically sounded like its been lifted straight off a classic rock album from the 70s or 80s.

Thanks Jdude, I thought these clips were ok, but I feel they could be much better...Thanks again dude...

Hey miner, when you say Strat HB... is that the Hard Rail? Just asking. Sounds killer to me man, that boxy sound is part of the deal for me on that... Lose it and it would just go all meh...

Thanks Mutt, duly noted about the pickup selection & corrected/edited my post good sir...Just to clarify, that was the bridge in 'bucker mode...Just so everybody knows, the boxy sound isn't the guitar, it's the amp...Since the p'up upgrade, the strat has become my main guitar...Really versatile, LP/strat/etc all in one package makes for a big punch...I'm still floored by how good your p'ups sound, so thanks again man...

I do kind of hear the "nasal" thing you were talking about. It sounds like the guitars are high passed too high. In the mix they aren't bad at all though. But they could be fuller.

Thanks Greg...I've came to the conclusion the boxy/nasal thing is just part of the Mini Jubilee's DNA that can't be removed...I never noticed it as much when the Mini J was my only amp, but it's obvious when compared to the Chupa...

I've tried everything I can think of, different speakers, 4x12/ISO cab, mics, & it's always there...I suppose I could buy an eq pedal to put in the loop, but I'm still not positive that would do the trick...I probably could eq it out after recording, but I'm trying to get the raw guitars sounding the best I can on the way in...

There isn't any eq/fx on the guitars, they're completely dry...Matter of fact, I usually put just a hair of room 'verb on my ISO cab tracks to make 'em sound a little more natural, but I left it off for these clips...The mics were slightly out of phase, but I did that intentionally trying to keep away from the fizz thing...Each mic on it's own is a lot brighter than when they're blended, so I may have went overboard using the mics to kill the fizz...

[Greg_L]

Thanks Greg...I've came to the conclusion the boxy/nasal thing is just part of the Mini Jubilee's DNA that can't be removed...I never noticed it as much when the Mini J was my only amp, but it's obvious when compared to the Chupa...

I've tried everything I can think of, different speakers, 4x12/ISO cab, mics, & it's always there...I suppose I could buy an eq pedal to put in the loop, but I'm still not positive that would do the trick...I probably could eq it out after recording, but I'm trying to get the raw guitars sounding the best I can on the way in...

There isn't any eq/fx on the guitars, they're completely dry...Matter of fact, I usually put just a hair of room 'verb on my ISO cab tracks to make 'em sound a little more natural, but I left it off for these clips...The mics were slightly out of phase, but I did that intentionally trying to keep away from the fizz thing...Each mic on it's own is a lot brighter than when they're blended, so I may have went overboard using the mics to kill the fizz...

The out of phase might be creating a little nasalness. When mics are in phase on a speaker they usually naturally cancel some fizz. When you flip the phase on one mic, what you're hearing is usually what's being cancelled out, and it's usually crap you don't want anyway. So being in phase the best you can is almost always the best thing to do.....unless you're using a distant mic as well. Killing the fizz isn't adding to the nasal sound IMO. To me that's a lack of low end. The low end is missing so all that's left down there is mids. That will sound nasal.

Perhaps that is just how the mini Jubilee sounds. The big ones don't have that nasal thing. They have their own quirks, but nasal isn't one of them.

[Minerman]

The out of phase might be creating a little nasalness. When mics are in phase on a speaker they usually naturally cancel some fizz. When you flip the phase on one mic, what you're hearing is usually what's being cancelled out, and it's usually crap you don't want anyway. So being in phase the best you can is almost always the best thing to do.....unless you're using a distant mic as well. Killing the fizz isn't adding to the nasal sound IMO. To me that's a lack of low end. The low end is missing so all that's left down there is mids. That will sound nasal.

Perhaps that is just how the mini Jubilee sounds. The big ones don't have that nasal thing. They have their own quirks, but nasal isn't one of them.

Thanks dude...You taught me pretty well on mic'ing an amp, but it's still a lot of trial/error that one has to learn on their own...Flipping the phase is how I've been getting rid of the fizz lately, IMO it's better than using an eq on the recorded tracks...

I think you're spot-on about the Mini Jubilee, that's just how it sounds...The low end on this amp is strange too, & it's a lot more noticeable using the G12H...The bass knob really doesn't do much until you hit about 7 or 8 on the dial, or that's how mine acts anyway...It gets pretty flubby from 9 - 10 on the dial, but it's a double-edged sword because it will always lack bottom end trying to stay away from the low-end flub...

I'm gonna try a couple things today & I'll post some more clips...

BTW, is the G12H 70th Anniversary speaker I have supposed to be some sort of Blackback re-issue??? It's got sorta the same character as my Greenback the way it breaks up when pushed, & especially with the Mini J...Just wondering...

And I'm seriously considering buying an eq pedal...It might help, but I don't know for sure, & wouldn't know until I actually got my hands on one to try...

[Greg_L]

BTW, is the G12H 70th Anniversary speaker I have supposed to be some sort of Blackback re-issue??? It's got sorta the same character as my Greenback the way it breaks up when pushed, & especially with the Mini J...Just wondering...

Not sure. I think it's a throwback to the heavy magnet 70s Celestions.

[muttley]

...........
Thanks Mutt, duly noted about the pickup selection & corrected/edited my post good sir...Just to clarify, that was the bridge in 'bucker mode...Just so everybody knows, the boxy sound isn't the guitar, it's the amp...Since the p'up upgrade, the strat has become my main guitar...Really versatile, LP/strat/etc all in one package makes for a big punch...I'm still floored by how good your p'ups sound, so thanks again man...

...........

So it is the Bridge Muttbucker Hard rail? If it is I'm gonna hit you up for it cos that sounds pretty good and what I kind of imagined you would get out of it in a strat...

[Minerman]

So it is the Bridge Muttbucker Hard rail? If it is I'm gonna hit you up for it cos that sounds pretty good and what I kind of imagined you would get out of it in a strat...

It's bridge p'up, full HB mode Mutt...Great little guitar since the p'up swap, it wasn't terrible before, but now it's just great...

I'm gonna finish that song if you can wait a little while for the whole shebang...Lemme know...

[rayc]

... look at ReaEQ and select the "rock bass" preset...or something like that. See if that makes it snarl and pop more and then you'll know where your frequencies need help.
The kick is kind of buried. Woofy. I hear the energy in the kick but it's not driving the low end along like it should with a power-pop mix. Needs more definition.

The guitars to me are too washy. I think you need an....ahem....Strat for this.
I can hear those driving jangly powerpop tones you're looking for being just right for this. I've stumbled on to that sound with my homebuild Deluxe Reverb and a Strat. If you want some guitar tracks like that, I'm happy to do them. Just let me know Gimme a few weeks or a day when the wife leaves the house. She's at home over the holidays. No drums or amp cranking going on over here for now.

COOL - never pass on Greg guitars, drum, bass, vocals, suggestions etc.
I'll get a cleared backing track to you in the next 24hrs.

[Bill L]

And JDude has asked for a sample of the Vox AC15 (the red one I posted in the new gear thread). Here's an original tune from rehearsal. I'm playing slide on a Strat, half cocked wah, a Keeley compressor and the Jeckyll and Hyde pedal that I use all of the time.

04 Simple Love Simple LifeTake 3.mp3

That sounds great, Bill... You're like Lt Bob though, aren't you? You could make a Line6 sound half tidy in a live mix.

How did you capture all that? Is it just a stereo out from teh desk?

You are too kind, sir. Thank you for the compliment. In reality, I've learned most of it from you guys here (and back when we all were members of the other board) and lots of trial and error.

As for how I did it, it was multi tracked using a Behringer X32 into my computer running Presonus Studio One 3. Six drum tracks, DI bass, guitars close mic'd (with less than ideal mics, btw) and 4 live vocal mics (which explains the incredibly lively room*). 13 or 14 tracks total. We no longer rehearse there and as I've mentioned we are starting to record now. Thankfully, the band leader has acquiesced and is letting me do my thing. We did some rough tracks the other day with the Roland V drums. However I was able to get him to agree to using real drums for the finished project. That was a big win. Now I have to convince him not use the Zoom interface (similar to the Tascam US-1800) and to use my X32. I also need to convince him not to use Garage Band (which he thinks is the best thing around). So for tonights session, I'll be bringing some mics (Rode Nt1A and Oktava MK-319) to replace his MXL or CAD LDC.

* pic of said room. The pic was taken from the middle of the room lengthwise, so it's a lot bigger than it appears. VERY lively.

PSP Rehearsal space.jpg

[JD01]

* pic of said room. The pic was taken from the middle of the room lengthwise, so it's a lot bigger than it appears. VERY lively.

PSP Rehearsal space.jpg

I used to rehearse in a room like that in Bristol, this one: https://www.factorystudios.co.uk/studios it was very lively.

I didn't like it actually - I liked this carpeted basement with loads of shit in it, it was an awkward space as there was a massive pile/column in the middle of the room holding the ceiling up but I thought we sounded best in there.

[Bill L]

I didn't like it actually - I liked this carpeted basement with loads of shit in it, it was an awkward space as there was a massive pile/column in the middle of the room holding the ceiling up but I thought we sounded best in there.

My biggest issue with the room was the volume. The band leader has substantial hearing loss (especially in upper mids to highs) and cranks his monitor. So loud that I didn't even use my monitor (I stood next to him and could hear his monitor). The irony being, in a room like that the louder you play the less you actually hear. But I could never get him to understand that.

But you just described my basement. It should be horrible sounding but there's enough stuff in it with enough weird angles that if you spend a little time with mic positioning you get some great sounds recorded.

[JD01]

But you just described my basement. It should be horrible sounding but there's enough stuff in it with enough weird angles that if you spend a little time with mic positioning you get some great sounds recorded.

Yeah - there was stacks of gear in there. Our band leader had a mini-grand piano in there (fuck knows how they got it down there), shelves of gear, plaster walls, bits of bear brickwork, pictures, tapestries. A right shithole - but a fun place to place.

I know what you mean about "the louder it is the less you hear" the big room (known as the Live Room) at Factory wasn't great for playing loud at all.

[Greg_L]

The irony being, in a room like that the louder you play the less you actually hear. But I could never get him to understand that.

There's definitely like a magical size room for a live practice or rehearsal. Too small and it's a mush of racket. Too big and it's a mush of racket.

[rayc]

I used the same setting for the drums as I used on the last project that used the same drum source.
I think it's tighter & tidier.
The ReaEQ bass preset seems to have helped somewhat too - thanks Greg.
The guitars are as they were.
I'll experiment with single coils as well as amp settings in an attempt to get my own approximation to Power Pop jangle - or not.

Don't ComeToMe211218full.mp3

Big Project Bill, big room to house it too - good luck with the stubborn folk.

[Greg_L]

I used the same setting for the drums as I used on the last project that used the same drum source.
I think it's tighter & tidier.
The ReaEQ bass preset seems to have helped somewhat too - thanks Greg.
The guitars are as they were.
I'll experiment with single coils as well as amp settings in an attempt to get my own approximation to Power Pop jangle - or not.
Don't ComeToMe211218full.mp3

Big Project Bill, big room to house it too - good luck with the stubborn folk.

Not too bad now. Nice drive to it. I think the bass is improved. I like these more aggressive tunes you're doing.

[Minerman]

I used the same setting for the drums as I used on the last project that used the same drum source.
I think it's tighter & tidier.
The ReaEQ bass preset seems to have helped somewhat too - thanks Greg.
The guitars are as they were.
I'll experiment with single coils as well as amp settings in an attempt to get my own approximation to Power Pop jangle - or not.

Sorry I hadn't replied Ray, just had another listen or two & it seems you've got it sounding a bit better on the 2nd clip...Nothing at all wrong with the 1st clip, it sounds like you've got the bass sounding a bit more aggressive, but also more "even" to me, if that makes any sense...

I struggle with low end & bass tones too man, so don't feel like you're all alone with that...

Giving you a big shout out here Ray, the clips you've been posting lately are a big jump forward, & I think you're finding your own groove like Jdude has done recently...Good stuff man!!!

Something else I wanna mention is the little eq chart you posted, I copied/pasted that into my tips/tricks/notes I've got on an external drive, very cool & very much appreciated...