The Tone Thread

[Greg_L]

I haven't got time to submit a proper clip this morning - I'm heading to the shed where the magic happens - but this is my kind of flanger sound in context:

That's some pretty good thick flanging. I like how it doesn't get harsh on the high part of the sweep. Good stuff.

[JD01]

Fair enough - just sounds like you're going for a fairly "phasey" effect using a flanger. Only really springs to mind 'cos I was playing with my Summer Orange (Phase90 clone) last night while I was doing a bit more practice on my metal track.

I know what you mean about phasers being more in your face - can sound more like they're further forward than the body of the tone if that makes sense. I'm pretty pleased with phaser though and it was cheap as fuck.

[Greg_L]

Fair enough - just sounds like you're going for a fairly "phasey" effect using a flanger. Only really springs to mind 'cos I was playing with my Summer Orange (Phase90 clone) last night while I was doing a bit more practice on my metal track.

I know what you mean about phasers being more in your face - can sound more like they're further forward than the body of the tone if that makes sense. I'm pretty pleased with phaser though and it was cheap as fuck.

Phasers typically have more presence to me. Almost like it sits right on top with the guitar signal whereas a flanger kind of melts the signal into a wash. I generally much prefer a flanger type sound. It's not as wimpy as chorus, but not as aggressive as a phaser. Chorus is one modulation effect that I have absolute no love for.

[JD01]

Phasers typically have more presence to me. Almost like it sits right on top with the guitar signal whereas a flanger kind of melts the signal into a wash. I generally much prefer a flanger type sound. It's not as wimpy as chorus, but not as aggressive as a phaser. Chorus is one modulation effect that I have absolute no love for.

Yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing. I used to have a really good Arian (I think) flanger in the 90s - now I have a shite rotating metal fishtank.

I like Chorus though - not for when it becomes really obvious modulation - I like it set quite subtle to just gently colour the tone.

[Bubba]

That's some pretty good thick flanging. I like how it doesn't get harsh on the high part of the sweep. Good stuff.

Thanks, I think flanging is by far my favourite modulation effect. I'm curious as to why you don't like chorus, though - to me they're both in the same family of time-modulating effects. They almost cross over, in fact. Perhaps there's a bad association with certain types of music?
The Ibanez FL-9 is another great old-school flanger. On some settings, though,the bottom of the sweep where it turns the corner had a queasy kind of"lurch". Hard to describe but very recognisable and a bit "marmite" as we say in Britain.

[Bubba]

Ha thanks. No, not "Seventeen". Great song though. That was an abbreviated version of "Cheat" by The Clash.

Duh. Really? I really am going to have to dig deeper into the album stuff, aren't I?

[Greg_L]

I don't like chorus for many reasons. One being it's association with the worst music ever - the 80s power ballad. To me, chorus used like that can't not sound corny and dated. A clean electric guitar through chorus is the worst shit ever to me. It really does make me wince. Another is that I think it's best used as a stereo effect, and I don't run stereo rigs. To me it doesn't collapse down to mono as well as a flanger or phaser does. If I ran a wet/dry/wet setup maybe I'd find it more useful. For as sparingly as I actually use modulation effects, a flanger or phaser kills chorus for me.

[Greg_L]

Duh. Really? I really am going to have to dig deeper into the album stuff, aren't I?

Cheat is a fanfuckingtastic classic Clash song. I almost did it for my Clash tribute thread song. I might still do it anyway. The album mix of Cheat has a massive flanger effect across one part of the whole mix. Pretty cool.

[Bubba]

the 80s power ballad.

I suspected it would be something like that. It would give anybody a fucking phobia.

Being older than you I started with more positive associations like the British punk and post-punk stuff that used the effect - The Ruts, the Skids, The Cure etc.

[Bubba]

Cheat is a fanfuckingtastic classic Clash song. I almost did it for my Clash tribute thread song. I might still do it anyway. The album mix of Cheat has a massive flanger effect across one part of the whole mix. Pretty cool.

I'm heading to Spotify right now.

[Greg_L]

Being older than you I started with more positive associations like the British punk and post-punk stuff that used the effect - The Ruts, the Skids, The Cure etc.

I remember being a young teenager in the 80s and hearing that clean chorus sound on so many songs and my gut reaction was "this is cheesy". Before I even knew what chorus was, I didn't like it. Maybe if it had been on one song, then fine, but it was everywhere. Then later as I started playing myself I'd heard someone doing it in person and found out what it actually was. That damn little stompbox was the culprit. I've hated chorus since day one. In almost 30 years of writing songs and playing live, I've never once wanted or needed a chorus effect for anything.

[Bubba]

That's such a classic early studio effect, isn't it? Shades of Black Betty and Itchycoo Park. I wonder if they did it the old-school way, running twin tapes of the mix and using the tip of a finger to slow down one of the tape reels? Or one of the machines with a varispeed control? Or will there have been electronic versions by then?

[Greg_L]

That's such a classic early studio effect, isn't it? Shades of Black Betty and Itchycoo Park. I wonder if they did it the old-school way, running twin tapes of the mix and using the tip of a finger to slow down one of the tape reels? Or one of the machines with a varispeed control? Or will there have been electronic versions by then?

You talking about the Clash mix? I don't know if hardware flanger effects existed back then. Maybe. They were in their infancy for guitars in the earrly/mid 70s. Maybe they had them in studios already. No idea.

[SweetDan]

I've tried miking up amps with two different condensers and they always sound dark - but I do find that they make small combo amps sound bigger.
Like Greg says you need to move your mic closer to the centre, but specifically, I think you need to have the SM57 closer to the centre than the AKG.

I have quite a naturally dark amp so I have the SM57 close to the centre (just on the edge of the dust-cap) with the AKG [C1000s] a little further out - only a little though 'cos I still find this quite a dark mic. Then I blend the two, mostly using the 57 (which can be a touch too bright on its own) but with the condenser blended in quiet quietly - I find this makes the amp sound "bigger" and counters some of the inherent brightness of having an SM57 just outside the dust-cap.

For me, it's still strange thinking that an SM57 would sound brighter than a condenser, right? I mean, you look at the response graph of a condenser, and it goes way out to the right much further than most dynamic mics. But that's how it's turning out.

(EDIT) By the way, with the 2-mic setup you describe, how far do you put each of the mics from the grille?

Ok, done. http://eastofcleveland.com/m/guitarTone ... Louder.mp3

Of your clips I think that the 3rd version sounds the best.

Which turned out to be *only* the '57. (1:44 for those who are just now following along)

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Well I think it's a little dark, but maybe that's what you're after. Speaking of....what are you after anyway?

In general? Learning how to get the best sounds out of the gear I already own...mostly because I'm a cheap bastard. Reality dictates that I negotiate large music-related purchases with my wife and the family budget, however, so it's also pretty unlikely I will get a "real" amp (in the next few years anyway).

I don't have a specific use for this clip I've been using, but there is a song I wrote and recorded a few years ago that should be re-done. It was pretty bad, I sang horribly (still do), but the worst part was that I chose a really trashy amp-sim preset, and IIRC, was thoroughly chastised for doing so on the ot"H"er fo"R"um where I posted it:

[Bubba]

For me, it's still strange thinking that an SM57 would sound brighter than a condenser, right? I mean, you look at the response graph of a condenser, and it goes way out to the right much further than most dynamic mics. But that's how it's turning out.

It's probably because the 57 and 58 have a presence peak which is right where the "bite" of an electric guitar is. There's not much in a guitar sound above 5-7k.

[JD01]

I've tried miking up amps with two different condensers and they always sound dark - but I do find that they make small combo amps sound bigger.
Like Greg says you need to move your mic closer to the centre, but specifically, I think you need to have the SM57 closer to the centre than the AKG.

I have quite a naturally dark amp so I have the SM57 close to the centre (just on the edge of the dust-cap) with the AKG [C1000s] a little further out - only a little though 'cos I still find this quite a dark mic. Then I blend the two, mostly using the 57 (which can be a touch too bright on its own) but with the condenser blended in quiet quietly - I find this makes the amp sound "bigger" and counters some of the inherent brightness of having an SM57 just outside the dust-cap.

For me, it's still strange thinking that an SM57 would sound brighter than a condenser, right? I mean, you look at the response graph of a condenser, and it goes way out to the right much further than most dynamic mics. But that's how it's turning out.

(EDIT) By the way, with the 2-mic setup you describe, how far do you put each of the mics from the grille?

I had no idea about the response graphs - but just goes to show, you have to listen with your ears not your eyes, eh?

I generally have the 57 about 2cm off the grill with the edge of mic just outside the dustcap of the speaker.

Just for the sake of space on the front of the amp I stick the AKG on the other side of the dust-cap, maybe a couple of centimeters from from the edge of the dustcap and maybe 3 or 4 cm off the grill. I keep it mixed really low though. You're probably best off working on getting half decent tone with the 57 at first and then working out how to blend a 2nd mic in later.

I'd post up a pic of my mic placement but my phone has just died so I can't get to any of the pictures - I might have one on my googledrive though.

[Greg_L]

In general? Learning how to get the best sounds out of the gear I already own...mostly because I'm a cheap bastard.

Lol. Fair enough. But I meant...do you have like a tone idea you'd like for most of your own music? Like for me, I'm a big loud Marshall kind of guy. Some guys might like darker "American" tones. Some might like hairy shred metal high gain stuff. Some like pushed Fender cleans, etc. Some might want jangly Vox sounds. Do you have a base tone style in mind? We might be able to help steer you that way if you have a specific idea in mind. Not that you have to use the same tones for everything, but most people don't veer too far off from their preferred sound and style.

I don't have a specific use for this clip I've been using, but there is a song I wrote and recorded a few years ago that should be re-done. It was pretty bad, I sang horribly (still do), but the worst part was that I chose a really trashy amp-sim preset, and IIRC, was thoroughly chastised for doing so on the ot"H"er fo"R"um where I posted it:

Yeah that's pretty nasty. Actually the dirty rhythm in the middle during the verses isn't that bad to me. The lead bits are rough. I think you can probably do better than that with your modeling amp.

[JD01]

This clip actually sounds a lot better than anything I could produce when i first joined The Tone Thead - so you have a headstart on me at any rate.

[SweetDan]

...do you have like a tone idea you'd like for most of your own music? Like for me, I'm a big loud Marshall kind of guy. Some guys might like darker "American" tones. Some might like hairy shred metal high gain stuff. Some like pushed Fender cleans, etc. Some might want jangly Vox sounds. Do you have a base tone style in mind?

A single "base tone"? srs? You're asking me to prioritize and make a decision? [/s]

Unfortunately, no. My musical tastes (even the stuff I write) range too far and wide. Quite a bit of acoustic-type stuff (way more classical than bluegrass, though), some jazz, lots of rock/pop fill my head. So I want to learn how to do it *all*. One part at a time, I guess. Just like learning how to play an instrument...the studio itself becomes the "instrument", and just like you have to learn how to break down the techniques of the right way to hold a pick or a drumstick, you also have to learn the techniques of acoustics management, and mic placements, and amp settings, etc.

[Bill L]

the studio itself becomes the "instrument", and just like you have to learn how to break down the techniques of the right way to hold a pick or a drumstick, you also have to learn the techniques of acoustics management, and mic placements, and amp settings, etc.

This right here is correct. I too write in many different styles (or at least seek very different sound textures). But learning that the studio is an instrument that has major impact on your finished pieces is an essential thing to understand. It all matters; just some of it matters more than others, sometimes.