Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

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WhiskeyJack
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Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Ok, i didn't post a day by day photo thing of this just because some may know i have been struggling / picking away at one of my guitars in my free time for a few weeks now, others may not but here is this leg of the journey. I figured I'd wait until the very end when this portion was done to post about it.

I love this guitar. It has a really great feel, sound and electronics (minus the wiring, that is phase 2 of this journey) for the little bit of lead work i want to throw into a recording. I haven't really played it much as it just always seemed out of tune with all my other guitars, so it rarely ever makes an appearance ever. It just had some nasty intonation issues working against it. I set about giving it a good going over using some basic guidelines of a good pre set up inspection and two things stood out to me. A: The neck needed one heck of a truss adjustment. B: Based only off internet research and talking to the guys here, the nut slots may have also been to high.

Acting on advice from mutt i got the balls up to do my own truss rod adjustment to kick this off. I didn't want to. I think in my teens and early 20's the local shop had me scared to death to even look at the truss rod. I am a grown ass man now and common sense told me i SHOULD know how to do this by now. I didn't force this leg of the journey. I took my time. I think at most i did like a 1/4 turn and let it sit over night, then checked it when i got home from work that night and adjusted it again. Rinse lather repeat. (I was actually doing this to two other guitars as well) I ended up cranking around 3/4's and +/- an 1/8th of a turn on the last night and it got it pretty good. That alone helped some of the intonation issues a bit but every string was going hella sharp when i capo'd the first fret. I adjusted the saddles at the bridge at this point and it made very little difference. Some difference but every string was still quite sharp so i conferred with mutt again and he felt pretty confident it was the nut slot heights and advised me of an ideal height re: the height of first fret plus a bit of headroom. Another source also made the same suggestion.

This nut wasn't even close. I picked up some feeler gauges and measured out the height of the first fret. Added in some extra height into the measurement for some clearance over the first fret and this is what it looked like.

Image

Each string had pretty much the exact same gap after that except the little e string. That guy was a little closer but not a whole lot.

I went and bought some welders tool tip cleaners to do the slot filing on the cheap. I had read on another forum that some guys have had good luck with these things when in need and do a decent enough job. One fellow added that they had good luck with them but they were PAINFULLY SLOW GOING. He wasn't wrong. After about an hour i managed to get the slot lowered a bit. These little files did a tidy job given how fine they are and how little material (bone in this case) they removed.

Image

The photos look a little misleading and that perhaps not much has changed. It doesn't really look like it moved much but it did. I also didn't go right to the feeler gauge in that last photo as as i snapped the picture i realized that i when i added in the extra bit of space for the gap i only added 0.002 of an inch instead of the recommended 0.020 of an inch. :spacepalm: :spacepalm: :spacepalm: So i just left it right where it was. If anything it is probably a bit to low but not in a bad way? It seems to be in perfect intonation at this point. I did add in the correct gauge to the stack after i snapped this photo i just forgot to take a pic of it. It was a pretty snug fit under that big E string. Whoops. :sherlock: :happytrees:

I'll spare you pictures of all the other strings but i will say the 7 dollar tool tip cleaners only afforded me the ability to adjust the slots for the E, A and D strings. :dislike: :dislike: I wasn't going to try to use any other gauge size for the small strings. I had flash backs to a shitty Yamaha our family used to have and the g and b strings were for ever popping out of the nut so i wasn't going to go there.

I had read elsewhere you can fashion some crude files out of feeler gauges with the help of a dremel but as i was explaining that to my buddy at the music store his boss overheard and was like "no dude, that is way too much work i'll just lend you my nut files" He kindly agreed to bring in his own personal files into the store for me to pick up the following day. :like: :like: :sherlock:

Image

Worked great. Maybe a little too good because i am pretty sure my b string is a little lower now than it should be. It buzzes every so often on the first fret. I am sure when i restring this and readjust the action to compensate for the lowered nut now, that buzz may correct it self a bit. Long story short, I am going to add these nut files to my various wishlist's and keep an eye out for them and their respective sales.

So now the slots are good, the intonation is much better (i wont really know EXACTLY how much better until i get new strings and really good set up done on it) but it is way better than it was holy jesus!!! :like: :like: The only problem now is that the nut was just looked wrong and i started to panic. :confused: :confused: :confused: Then i recalled [mention]muttley[/mention] mentioning to me that 2/3'rds of the string should be seated in the slot and the other third above the break point kind of thing. After looking at all my other guitars sure enough thats the way it should be.

I had some more work to do.

Image

Luckily i had a bunch of cool files i bought years ago for carving shit out of soap stone and they sort of came in handy for reducing the headroom on this nut. I suspect i am going ot make mutt cringe a little bit with the following text but i just eyeballed this part of it. I took my time. Probably about 2.5 hours but i just filed it all down flat right above the D and G strings until i hit the top of the string, and then started just spreading the radius out towards where the E's live. After i hit those strings i took all the strings out of their slots and then started to file it down a little bit at a time, put the strings back in their home see how much was in the slot and how much was out and either carried on or stopped.

Once i was done with all that, i colored the whole top of the nut in with a pencil and started removing material off the back toward the front holding the angle of the head stock. Once happy with that i went over it with four different grits of fine sandpaper and it polished up pretty good.

Image
Image

Self Analysis:
  • - I should have put some masking tape on the fret board side of the nut while working. Idiot. :headwall:
  • I think i over did it around the big E string. I think there is more string showing above the nut then there should be and i definitely over did the stupid little curved rounded corner i put on there. (Please don't ask me why i rounded the corners? i just did! my brain said do it so i did it!! shut up!! :mad3: ) You can see it drops off way more than the little e side. It seems to be seated in ok. I gave it a few good Shan whacks on an open E minor chord and it stayed put so i would say it's fine.
  • You can also really see how the b string is slotted a little lower then it should be. But whatever. The guitar is in tune now and i love it. I don't cringe playing an A minor anymore.


It could definitely be better no doubt, but for a first attempt i feel OK with it. It is definitely a different feeling guitar in a good way!! That makes me want to play it. real bad. To me, that is mission accomplished.

Next up is fix the shitty wiring rat nest living inside the cavity. Wish me luck and stay tuned. :like: :like: :happytrees:
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Armistice
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by Armistice »

Good for you. I would so have taken it to a guitar shop and said "fix it for me" over spending hours with files... :like:
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by Greg_L »

Great work Shanny. I'd say you did a pretty fantastic job for a first-timer, and you have the satisfaction of doing it yourself. Nuthin wrong with that! Good stuff! :coolstorybro: :coolstorybro:
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by Lt. Bob »

that looks great mang!!

Nice work!
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by muttley »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:03 pm Self Analysis:
  • - I should have put some masking tape on the fret board side of the nut while working. Idiot. :headwall:

Yep.
  • I think i over did it around the big E string. I think there is more string showing above the nut then there should be and i definitely over did the stupid little curved rounded corner i put on there. (Please don't ask me why i rounded the corners? i just did! my brain said do it so i did it!! shut up!! :mad3: ) You can see it drops off way more than the little e side. It seems to be seated in ok. I gave it a few good Shan whacks on an open E minor chord and it stayed put so i would say it's fine.
Nope, You need just as much depth to the slot as will stop the string from jumping the slot. On wound strings I aim for half. On plain strings around two thirds.
  • You can also really see how the b string is slotted a little lower then it should be. But whatever. The guitar is in tune now and i love it. I don't cringe playing an A minor anymore.

That is a common error, ie. sinking one string lower than the others. The temptation is to compound it by chasing the other strings to the same depth. You didnt do that.. Its only a problem if it buzzes. If it does the next common mistake is to start dressing the first and second fret to get rid of it. Dont do that. The fix is to start over with a new nut or in a pinch glue an paper shim to the bottom and drop the other slots...:coolstorybro:
It could definitely be better no doubt, but for a first attempt i feel OK with it. It is definitely a different feeling guitar in a good way!! That makes me want to play it. real bad. To me, that is mission accomplished.

Next up is fix the shitty wiring rat nest living inside the cavity. Wish me luck and stay tuned. :like: :like: :happytrees:
You have just also realised that intonation is a combination of tension, string length and string mass...

As for how you finish off the sides? that's entirely up to you. The leading front edge should be pretty sharp and the back edge should have a very slight round over. The top should be angled so the string makes contact across the nut but angles so the break angle on and off the nut to the tuner is the same. The gap between the strings should be the same regardless of string gauge. Those are the little details that mark a professional job from a others and things for you to shoot for on your next nut..

Good job
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by muttley »

.......and shouldnt this be in the G&b board???
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by Tadpui »

Nice job, dude! I haven't worked up the courage to address the nut issues that a couple of my guitars have. Looks like you did a good job, and now you've got an axe that plays better than ever!
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

[mention]Armistice[/mention] [mention]Greg_L[/mention] [mention]Lt. Bob[/mention] [mention]Tadpui[/mention] Thanks dudes. It was a bit nerve wracking. Realistically I doubt i could have made it any worse. It was a little pain in the ass project thing that not only gave me a bit more confidence in myself, but god dam was it ever rewarding!!! And most importantly it's got me wanting to play that thing so badly.

thanks [mention]muttley[/mention]. Your expertise was a guiding voice in my head. Every thing i did i had this weird feeling you were standing there over my shoulder judging me. HAHA.

It's funny you mentioned the common error and the temptation to lower all the other strings, because for a very fleeting couple of seconds i did think that very thought. Then it dawned on me that that would be a dumb thing to do given all the recent education on slot height i had put inside my head. I had once seen a video where someone used crazy glue and i want to say baking powder? Or crazy glue and bone filing dust and filled the slot and just refiled it down again. But i just left it and figured i can sort the tuning from the saddle later. When I fret any chord using that string i don't even notice a difference from so i moved on.

Incidentally the buzz has gone away and i haven't touched anything on it since Saturday? Odd.

Thanks All. I had fun.
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by Greg_L »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:16 pm

Incidentally the buzz has gone away and i haven't touched anything on it since Saturday? Odd.
I bet the truss rod/string tension settled in and all is fine. Maybe?
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

muttley wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:43 pm .......and shouldnt this be in the G&b board???
I jammed it in the DIY thread because it was a DIY? Maybe the DIY thread is misleading becasue of the "around the studio" moniker.

I suppose i could move it over there and leave a ghost thread here? Or do some housekeeping some night this week. :confused: :confused:
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Greg_L wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:18 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:16 pm

Incidentally the buzz has gone away and i haven't touched anything on it since Saturday? Odd.
I bet the truss rod/string tension settled in and all is fine. Maybe?
Who knows? I am going to keep an eye on it. the action is still super low. I have made zero adjustments at the bridge at all yet. I was waiting for a fresh set of strings after the electrical work to adjust the height down there.
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by muttley »

Yeh, gerg is prolly right. This will probably settle more so keep an eye on it. Buzzing is down to microns at that end of the neck. Dont chase it.

The superglue dust trick is a quick fix only. A bit of a hack really, Ive done it at gigs...
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by muttley »

How has it settled down? Any minor fluctuations would have set in by now.
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

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muttley wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:01 pm How has it settled down? Any minor fluctuations would have set in by now.
It has settled in so good [mention]muttley[/mention] !!! Now, It's a little buzzy in places still. But again i've not tackled the action at the bridge yet. It's weird how the bussing seems to move around the neck as days goes by. Seems like they move further up the neck i want to say. I am hoping will all go away with the final string change set up too.

But that b string issue --- gonzo!!! :happytrees: :happytrees: Was only really a problem for like a day or two. I am pleased as piss and quite proud of myself. I likely shouldn't be but it just feels good to have tackled that and came out with what i feel is a bit of a win. It's a little intimidating but i really wanted to do it myself.

Now I am just trying to navigate my way around the wiring diagrams for what i want to do inside the cavity. Namely just familiarize myself with the symbols and understanding the anatomy of the pots and the wires. Greg sent me a good sketch / diagram thingy and I was just going to dive into the wiring clean up / rewire like i would attack the instructions for a model car. just make it look the same right ?! But after talking to my dad (his entire naval / submariner career was an electrician before he was an grunt instructor) he really felt i should understand exactly what it is i am doing before i start taking shit apart and putting it back together. Like why am i putting a particular colored wire to a particular part of the pot. I don't know so i should know i suppose. Dad's tend to be correct.

I think he was a bit offended at my nonchalant (arrogant) attitude toward simply making sure the colors match the pictures. :frown:
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

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WhiskeyJack wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:34 pm
muttley wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:01 pm How has it settled down? Any minor fluctuations would have set in by now.
It has settled in so good @muttley !!! Now, It's a little buzzy in places still. But again i've not tackled the action at the bridge yet. It's weird how the bussing seems to move around the neck as days goes by. Seems like they move further up the neck i want to say. I am hoping will all go away with the final string change set up too.

But that b string issue --- gonzo!!! :happytrees: :happytrees: Was only really a problem for like a day or two. I am pleased as piss and quite proud of myself. I likely shouldn't be but it just feels good to have tackled that and came out with what i feel is a bit of a win. It's a little intimidating but i really wanted to do it myself.

Now I am just trying to navigate my way around the wiring diagrams for what i want to do inside the cavity. Namely just familiarize myself with the symbols and understanding the anatomy of the pots and the wires. Greg sent me a good sketch / diagram thingy and I was just going to dive into the wiring clean up / rewire like i would attack the instructions for a model car. just make it look the same right ?! But after talking to my dad (his entire naval / submariner career was an electrician before he was an grunt instructor) he really felt i should understand exactly what it is i am doing before i start taking shit apart and putting it back together. Like why am i putting a particular colored wire to a particular part of the pot. I don't know so i should know i suppose. Dad's tend to be correct.

I think he was a bit offended at my nonchalant (arrogant) attitude toward simply making sure the colors match the pictures. :frown:
You can do it your way and it will likely work out fine but if you do it your dads way you will learn and make future projects that little bit easier. I'm here if you need and explanations as to the why and what as far as guitar wiring goes. Its actually pretty simple once you know how the pots work and how the pickups work. You can do a lot of tweaking simply by understanding the merits of various pots and caps, the actual mechanics of the layout and hookup are what they are.
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

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muttley wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:38 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:34 pm

It has settled in so good @muttley !!! Now, It's a little buzzy in places still. But again i've not tackled the action at the bridge yet. It's weird how the bussing seems to move around the neck as days goes by. Seems like they move further up the neck i want to say. I am hoping will all go away with the final string change set up too.

But that b string issue --- gonzo!!! :happytrees: :happytrees: Was only really a problem for like a day or two. I am pleased as piss and quite proud of myself. I likely shouldn't be but it just feels good to have tackled that and came out with what i feel is a bit of a win. It's a little intimidating but i really wanted to do it myself.

Now I am just trying to navigate my way around the wiring diagrams for what i want to do inside the cavity. Namely just familiarize myself with the symbols and understanding the anatomy of the pots and the wires. Greg sent me a good sketch / diagram thingy and I was just going to dive into the wiring clean up / rewire like i would attack the instructions for a model car. just make it look the same right ?! But after talking to my dad (his entire naval / submariner career was an electrician before he was an grunt instructor) he really felt i should understand exactly what it is i am doing before i start taking shit apart and putting it back together. Like why am i putting a particular colored wire to a particular part of the pot. I don't know so i should know i suppose. Dad's tend to be correct.

I think he was a bit offended at my nonchalant (arrogant) attitude toward simply making sure the colors match the pictures. :frown:
You can do it your way and it will likely work out fine but if you do it your dads way you will learn and make future projects that little bit easier. I'm here if you need and explanations as to the why and what as far as guitar wiring goes. Its actually pretty simple once you know how the pots work and how the pickups work. You can do a lot of tweaking simply by understanding the merits of various pots and caps, the actual mechanics of the layout and hookup are what they are.
Thanks Mutt, I think it is a good idea. Once i started looking into different ways of wiring and why they exist my head started to hurt. tonight i am going ot have a beer and just try to understand Pots first. what all the little lugs on there do and all that stuff. If i get totally confused i'll come at you with questions for sure.
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by muttley »

Pots are easy. They just send a part of the signal to ground before it goes to the output. It the whole signal goes to ground there is no output. Tone pots work in conjunction with a capacitor which filter out high frequencies and sends them to ground.
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by Greg_L »

muttley wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:59 pm Pots are easy. They just send a part of the signal to ground before it goes to the output. It the whole signal goes to ground there is no output. Tone pots work in conjunction with a capacitor which filter out high frequencies and sends them to ground.
Yup, that ^^^^^


Pots are basically just variable resistors. They're like valve...sort of. A signal comes in, and the pot's wiper position determines how much signal passes on to the rest of the circuit and how much gets shunted off to ground. Turn a pot all the way up, full signal goes through. Turn it all the way down, full signal goes to ground to die forever.
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Ok i am getting around to this now. I suspect i may just end up getting some new pots though. I didn't really realize how hard it is to turn the bridge volume knob. Like there is a shit load of resistance to it. Which at first i thought was normal or maybe even a unique feeling component they through in the guitar. Buti think it's just garbage. no other guitar i own requires that much effort to turn it. So i think i will just gut it and go all new. I can;t even find identifying marks on the pots to know what they are.

In the mean time, i have watched a few vids and read some stuff about wiring it up the 50's style way. And while i feel ok at this point that i can do that, [mention]muttley[/mention] i still don't fully understand why certain wires go on certain lugs? I feel like i am missing some basic rudimentary understanding of the lugs here which may be why? Like is there is a particular lug that is only for hot and one for ground and so on? I don't understand. :confused:

Also, i started looking around the cavity of this to kind of get a feel for what they had done and i don't really know whats going on here either. I took a pic and made a sketch.

Image

Image
('GOES INTO CAVITY' should read "DISAPPEARS INTO BODY")

Would this be considered the "modern way" of wiring it up? It seems like a lot to me but i am so green and inexperienced at this point i don't know if this mess was intentional or actually served some cool purpose. All the white (orange wires in the sketch) seems a bit much. but what do i know?

what do you guys think [mention]muttley[/mention] and [mention]Greg_L[/mention] let me know if you need any clarification on the hand sketch?
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Re: Operation: Make My Sparrow Rat Rod Gooder.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Oh and one question i have to ask after watching the videos and seeing other schematics. why would whoever wired this thing up have designed the caps the way they did? They have the one end of caps on the tone pots soldered to the middle lug and then the other end of the cap goes to the back of the pot and then from the same solder joint it has a white wire going from there to the back of the volume pot.

I am sure this may have served some purpose to do it that way but why couldn't they have just put the end of the cap they soldered to the back of the tone pot on the back of the volume pot, thus not needing that extra bit of wire.
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