The Tone Thread

[WhiskeyJack]

Some of the Orange amps in AT4 sound pretty good to me, but of course I have no idea if they sound like the real thing though...I can confirm the Marshall Jubilee sim sounds pretty close to my little amp, even when you engage the input clip, it drops the gain on the lead channel a hair, just like my amp...Greg told me his buddy's 100w does this too, so I'd say AT4 did a pretty good emulation of the Jubilee...

The RV50 is a great sim actually. it is pretty well rounded out whether it is true to form or not. I know that the AD30 sim doesn't respond at all like the AD30 in my room does. But the sim is for a single channel combo and the head i have is a dual channel so i am sure the sorcery between the two in the real world is very much different.

On the room mics, I use them very, very low in the guitar's overall sound, like the 2 main mics about -10, & the room mics at about -25 or so...Just enough to barely hear 'em & to notice if they're turned off (with the guitar solo'd)...I doubt if they can even be heard in a mix, but it seems to add a little fullness to the tone on it's own, so...I think it might kinda "glue" the guitars with the rest of the instruments, if that makes any sense...

I will have to monkey around with those a bit more then. My tones have in AT have a dryness to them than sort of bothers me like an itchy sweater in the middle of winter. I am not wondering if the room mics will curb some of that maybe?

Here is a question for you miner. Do you ever mess around with the input and master gain knobs within the sim itself?



I think these little features are kind of deceptive and maybe alter how the amp sim functions? The input knob is essentially a clean boot with out calling it a clean boost in my mind and that master knob is really not much different but just on the colored end of the track you are working on. I personally leave these well alone and dial in my shit. When i hear people talk about the AT4 Sims in a negative way, i sometimes can't help but wonder if these little knobs are what leads a person to believe that a sim doesn't sound or work like the real thing?

I personally do not touch any gain staging above and beyond what the actual simulated amp has available to me. The one exception being the preamp on my 2i2. I find my happy place there and and then i let the sim do the rest.

It's called the Brit 8000, in the "Classic Brit Collection", but I think it's only available in AT4 dude, don't hold me to that though...I got the full shebang (upgrade from AT3) as a Christmas gift from my sister quite awhile back, so I can't remember specifics at the moment, but I do good to remember what day it is sometimes anymore...

I actually think the 800 in AT4 sucks ass myself, . . . . try the LePou Hybrit dude...It's free, comes in a few different versions (pre-amp only, head only, + head/cab), & sounds way better to me...

Right on. yea, i only have the base AT4 plus the Orange and the Fender add ons. I picked them all up on sale. The fender one was a nice snag actually when you buy it you get like 90% of the mics AT4 has to offer. that was a really nice surprise.

Yea i have the Hybrit and and i would not go looking for another 800 sim ever again. That one is perfectly fine for me. If that Brit 8000 doesn't come stock then they can keep it. I am not going to go buying it.

[WhiskeyJack]

Don't do much in the way of single coil bridge pickup tones... but this is a split coil bridge pickup tone.

No FX or anything, just straight into my HK>V30>i5.

Single Coil.mp3

[JD01]

Haha

[Minerman]

The RV50 is a great sim actually. it is pretty well rounded out whether it is true to form or not. I know that the AD30 sim doesn't respond at all like the AD30 in my room does. But the sim is for a single channel combo and the head i have is a dual channel so i am sure the sorcery between the two in the real world is very much different.

All the Orange amps in AT4 sound pretty good, or I think they do...The smaller amps even sound on par with what I'd expect the EL84 amps to sound like compared to the EVH I had, especially when pushing the power section...It's subtle, & only takes a slight turn of the knob, but it sounds pretty realistic when it's dialed in...

I will have to monkey around with those a bit more then. My tones have in AT have a dryness to them than sort of bothers me like an itchy sweater in the middle of winter. I am not wondering if the room mics will curb some of that maybe?

I meant to tell you in about 99% of the mix clips I post, there's reverb on all the guitars...Not much, but it's there, usually a plate or hall, along with the room mic if I'm using AT4...

Here is a question for you miner. Do you ever mess around with the input and master gain knobs within the sim itself?

Sorta dude...I'm sure you know you can use shift + mouse up/down to have finer control, but if you click on the knob you wanna adjust, then click the value at the bottom, you can type in the level exactly...IE: the EL84 amps I mentioned, just going from 7.2 to 7.7 makes a difference...You can get there with shift + mouse, but that's just one of the many weird habits I have...But I think it's pretty handy to hit a chord, then type in the amount/level & hear what it does to the sound while the chord is ringing...

I think these little features are kind of deceptive and maybe alter how the amp sim functions? The input knob is essentially a clean boot with out calling it a clean boost in my mind and that master knob is really not much different but just on the colored end of the track you are working on. I personally leave these well alone and dial in my shit. When i hear people talk about the AT4 Sims in a negative way, i sometimes can't help but wonder if these little knobs are what leads a person to believe that a sim doesn't sound or work like the real thing?

I personally do not touch any gain staging above and beyond what the actual simulated amp has available to me. The one exception being the preamp on my 2i2. I find my happy place there and and then i let the sim do the rest.

I try to get the di signal going into my interface as loud as possible, but without clipping the input meters in Reaper...My guitars are all in the general area, but they do need a little twist of the pre knob to make absolutely sure they don't clip or the signal is hot enough...That's one of the weird habits I got into a long time ago, but I think it's a good practice myself...

As far as the input in AT4, I never touch it, it stays at "0"...Sometimes I'll have a compressor (for bass) to smooth the signal out a bit, & sometimes, depending, I may stick a simple gain plug with meters in the slot before the ampsim to make sure the levels are how I want 'em...

I dunno if these knobs alter how AT4 functions, but I never, never let the master output clip dude...When you crank the amp head, sometimes the master out will clip, I usually lower all 3 mics (IE: -10 or -5, the exact same value regardless), & if that doesn't stop it, I turn the "module" volume knob under the amp to the left of the master down a db or two...If I can't lower the clipping any other way, I use the master, but usually it's pretty easy to track down...A rack effect at the end of the chain is a good place to look for that, a lot of the fx add db's the overall volume, so I use the output on the effect to level it out...

Now I have no idea if it would sound better letting the master out clip, but it just goes against my way of gain staging any plugins...No matter what kind of plugin it is, I always check to make sure each one isn't clipping dude...That's another one of the weird habits I got into long ago, but it goes hand in hand with my pre-amp gain...

Right on. yea, i only have the base AT4 plus the Orange and the Fender add ons. I picked them all up on sale. The fender one was a nice snag actually when you buy it you get like 90% of the mics AT4 has to offer. that was a really nice surprise.

Yea i have the Hybrit and and i would not go looking for another 800 sim ever again. That one is perfectly fine for me. If that Brit 8000 doesn't come stock then they can keep it. I am not going to go buying it.

They've added a Leslie & a Fender 2 pack not too long ago, but I haven't tried those...The first Fender pack sounded really good to me, & those are pretty old now too, so I'd say the new versions are good too...

[musicturtle]

The RV50 is a great sim actually. it is pretty well rounded out whether it is true to form or not. I know that the AD30 sim doesn't respond at all like the AD30 in my room does. But the sim is for a single channel combo and the head i have is a dual channel so i am sure the sorcery between the two in the real world is very much different.

All the Orange amps in AT4 sound pretty good, or I think they do...The smaller amps even sound on par with what I'd expect the EL84 amps to sound like compared to the EVH I had, especially when pushing the power section...It's subtle, & only takes a slight turn of the knob, but it sounds pretty realistic when it's dialed in...

I will have to monkey around with those a bit more then. My tones have in AT have a dryness to them than sort of bothers me like an itchy sweater in the middle of winter. I am not wondering if the room mics will curb some of that maybe?

I meant to tell you in about 99% of the mix clips I post, there's reverb on all the guitars...Not much, but it's there, usually a plate or hall, along with the room mic if I'm using AT4...

Here is a question for you miner. Do you ever mess around with the input and master gain knobs within the sim itself?

Sorta dude...I'm sure you know you can use shift + mouse up/down to have finer control, but if you click on the knob you wanna adjust, then click the value at the bottom, you can type in the level exactly...IE: the EL84 amps I mentioned, just going from 7.2 to 7.7 makes a difference...You can get there with shift + mouse, but that's just one of the many weird habits I have...But I think it's pretty handy to hit a chord, then type in the amount/level & hear what it does to the sound while the chord is ringing...

I think these little features are kind of deceptive and maybe alter how the amp sim functions? The input knob is essentially a clean boot with out calling it a clean boost in my mind and that master knob is really not much different but just on the colored end of the track you are working on. I personally leave these well alone and dial in my shit. When i hear people talk about the AT4 Sims in a negative way, i sometimes can't help but wonder if these little knobs are what leads a person to believe that a sim doesn't sound or work like the real thing?

I personally do not touch any gain staging above and beyond what the actual simulated amp has available to me. The one exception being the preamp on my 2i2. I find my happy place there and and then i let the sim do the rest.

I try to get the di signal going into my interface as loud as possible, but without clipping the input meters in Reaper...My guitars are all in the general area, but they do need a little twist of the pre knob to make absolutely sure they don't clip or the signal is hot enough...That's one of the weird habits I got into a long time ago, but I think it's a good practice myself...

As far as the input in AT4, I never touch it, it stays at "0"...Sometimes I'll have a compressor (for bass) to smooth the signal out a bit, & sometimes, depending, I may stick a simple gain plug with meters in the slot before the ampsim to make sure the levels are how I want 'em...

I dunno if these knobs alter how AT4 functions, but I never, never let the master output clip dude...When you crank the amp head, sometimes the master out will clip, I usually lower all 3 mics (IE: -10 or -5, the exact same value regardless), & if that doesn't stop it, I turn the "module" volume knob under the amp to the left of the master down a db or two...If I can't lower the clipping any other way, I use the master, but usually it's pretty easy to track down...A rack effect at the end of the chain is a good place to look for that, a lot of the fx add db's the overall volume, so I use the output on the effect to level it out...

Now I have no idea if it would sound better letting the master out clip, but it just goes against my way of gain staging any plugins...No matter what kind of plugin it is, I always check to make sure each one isn't clipping dude...That's another one of the weird habits I got into long ago, but it goes hand in hand with my pre-amp gain...

Right on. yea, i only have the base AT4 plus the Orange and the Fender add ons. I picked them all up on sale. The fender one was a nice snag actually when you buy it you get like 90% of the mics AT4 has to offer. that was a really nice surprise.

Yea i have the Hybrit and and i would not go looking for another 800 sim ever again. That one is perfectly fine for me. If that Brit 8000 doesn't come stock then they can keep it. I am not going to go buying it.

They've added a Leslie & a Fender 2 pack not too long ago, but I haven't tried those...The first Fender pack sounded really good to me, & those are pretty old now too, so I'd say the new versions are good too...

Lotta good info here. Thanks guys. Even though I don't have AP4, this is helpful for the thought process.

[JD01]

MT, you'll get used to this. Miner turns into a hillbilly genius when it comes too amp sims and edrums. Give him a baseball cap, dungarees and a mountain dew and you get rock n fucking roll!

[WhiskeyJack]

MT, you'll get used to this. Miner turns into a hillbilly genius when it comes too amp sims and edrums. Give him a baseball cap, dungarees and a mountain dew and you get rock n fucking roll!

[SweetDan]

Today I did some experiments in pedal/effect order...

You may recall I built that fuzz pedal a few months ago. Today I was curious to see if it sounded different before vs. after other effects. I've got a DigiTech RP255 (multi-effects unit) to play with as far as effects go (plus that boost/od I built after I built the fuzz, but wasn't using it today). And my amp, an Vox early-gen modeling amp (AD30VT) has some on-board effects.

The set-up was this:

- tele-clone, bridge pickup, tone/vol both rolled off a touch from 100%
- RP255: set up a moderate chorus, EQ (bass boosted a touch, mids boosted quite a bit, treble cut a smidge)
- the Fuzz pedal (it has only a level knob)
- the amp in one of the "clean" models, and the on-board delay (set to a medium-ish delay time and not swimming in repeats)
- all piped into an on-axis SM57, at the grille, and pointed at the dustcap/cone seam

The experiment consisted of swapping the order of the multi-effects (chorus/eq) unit and the fuzz pedal.

1. guitar -> multi-effects pedal -> fuzz pedal -> amp -> mic
2. guitar -> fuzz pedal -> multi-effects pedal -> amp -> mic

The clips:

crunchyVsSynthyFuzz.mp3

(EDIT: fixed the attachment)

Part one sounds "crunchy" to me, while part two sounds "synthy". Probably because having the fuzz last in the chain before hitting the amp let all the high-frequency junk it generates go unaltered right into the amp.

I prefer the first one, but it's good to know how to set this up if I ever need a more synth-like tone. (And now you know too...and knowing is half the battle...? )

[Minerman]

Today I did some experiments in pedal/effect order...

You may recall I built that fuzz pedal a few months ago. Today I was curious to see if it sounded different before vs. after other effects. I've got a DigiTech RP255 (multi-effects unit) to play with as far as effects go (plus that boost/od I built after I built the fuzz, but wasn't using it today). And my amp, an Vox early-gen modeling amp (AD30VT) has some on-board effects.

The set-up was this:

- tele-clone, bridge pickup, tone/vol both rolled off a touch from 100%
- RP255: set up a moderate chorus, EQ (bass boosted a touch, mids boosted quite a bit, treble cut a smidge)
- the Fuzz pedal (it has only a level knob)
- the amp in one of the "clean" models, and the on-board delay (set to a medium-ish delay time and not swimming in repeats)
- all piped into an on-axis SM57, at the grille, and pointed at the dustcap/cone seam

The experiment consisted of swapping the order of the multi-effects (chorus/eq) unit and the fuzz pedal.

1. guitar -> multi-effects pedal -> fuzz pedal -> amp -> mic
2. guitar -> fuzz pedal -> multi-effects pedal -> amp -> mic

Part one sounds "crunchy" to me, while part two sounds "synthy". Probably because having the fuzz last in the chain before hitting the amp let all the high-frequency junk it generates go unaltered right into the amp.

I prefer the first one, but it's good to know how to set this up if I ever need a more synth-like tone. (And now you know too...and knowing is half the battle...? )

Not bad dude, but maybe try lowering the level on the fuzz, & getting a little more volume from the amp??? Tough call on the fx order, but if it's possible, I'd try going into the front of the amp with the dirt/fuzz, & through the fx loop with the modulation fx, again, if it's possible...

[SweetDan]

Not bad dude, but maybe try lowering the level on the fuzz, & getting a little more volume from the amp??? Tough call on the fx order, but if it's possible, I'd try going into the front of the amp with the dirt/fuzz, & through the fx loop with the modulation fx, again, if it's possible...

Thanks for the suggestions. My amp is pretty limited -- no f/x loop. But with the fuzz out front, and the amp set to a clean model, it's kind of like the fuzz takes the place of pre-amp gain stage, and other effects between the fuzz and the amp function the f/x loop.

Anyway, this is all just an experiment anyway, and to test some of the "conventional wisdom" of pedal order myself. The majority of the articles I've seen discussing order of effects says to put the fuzz very first in the chain, unless you have a) a tuner or b) a wah pedal. The conventional wisdom may be "wrong" for me, my preferences, and for the equipment I have. It's all *often* about finding what works for yourself, right?

Another thing I've found is that I suck at judging and choosing tones in isolation; if I throw things in a mix, I'm likely to make a different (and usually better) choice. One of the downsides of trying to do everything yourself, right? ha! So, without further ado, here's a couple scratch tracks/mixes from today. Similar set-up as before (though I use no chorus from the multi-fx this time): one has guitar->multifx->fuzz->amp, the other has guitar->fuzz->multifx->amp:

untitled_20180729b.mp3

untitled_20180729b-fuzzy.mp3

This time I've come to the same conclusion: I like the fuzz right in front of the amp, and if the fuzz goes into the multi-fx pedal first, it sounds too "synthy" to me. (Maybe the multi-fx is the problem child here...hmmmm. )

[rayc]

Yep, that's a def retro bit damaged synth sound. Avoid unless needed.

[JD01]

Greg, here's some guitar grot for you
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZT2Wnf7BHM[/BBvideo]

[Greg_L]

Greg, here's some guitar grot for you
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZT2Wnf7BHM[/BBvideo]

Seen it. That's one of the few youtube "shows" I actually like. He did a 1950 Broadcaster yesterday. An actual Broadcaster.

[JD01]

Bet that's worth a few quid - will look it up now. I saw him do one of them 52 "Nocasters" recently.

That guy seems to really love teles. His playing is normally really good, but he didn't appear to be getting along with that Mosrite very well!

[Greg_L]

Bet that's worth a few quid - will look it up now. I saw him do one of them 52 "Nocasters" recently.

That guy seems to really love teles. His playing is normally really good, but he didn't appear to be getting along with that Mosrite very well!

He does love Teles. He's a Keith Richards fanboy.

[JD01]

Bet that's worth a few quid - will look it up now. I saw him do one of them 52 "Nocasters" recently.

That guy seems to really love teles. His playing is normally really good, but he didn't appear to be getting along with that Mosrite very well!

He does love Teles. He's a Keith Richards fanboy.

Here's the Broadcaster if anyone is interested
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXjJmI4BsI4[/BBvideo]

[JD01]

OK, slightly unusual one for The Tone Thread. As some of you know I've picked up another AKG C1000S so that I'll have a pair to use as drum overheads.
They're both 2nd hand, no idea what age they both are, they're in no way a proper "matched pair". I'm just strumming an acoustic to get some of idea of how they sound and I reckon they both identical. I tried to keep the position I was sitting, distance from guitar to mic and mic angle etc as close to identical as I could get it between takes. At first I thought the old mic might be slightly louder, but I reckon that was just down to how hard I strummed. I really can't clearly tell them apart.

Old Mic.mp3

New Mic.mp3

Stereo.mp3

Tell me how similar you think they are when you have a mo.

[Greg_L]

They sound close enough. You're worrying too much about "matched pair" for overheads. Worry about phase more than having a matched pair.

[JD01]

Yeah - I couldn't tell the difference.

Phase is something I can work on when I get a kit set up... just figured it would be nice to have a pair of mics that sound the same first!

[WhiskeyJack]

They sound close enough. You're worrying too much about "matched pair" for overheads. Worry about phase more than having a matched pair.

+1


When and where is it absolutely necessary to have a matched pair? What is the purpose?