The Tone Thread

[JD01]

I wish Marshall would "modernise" a bit. I'd love a Plexi with a clean channel, a master volume and emulated out at about 25W. Mini-jube is pretty close.

Basically, I think I'd like the character of a JTM 45 with the versatility of a H&K.... for under a thousand quid.

Lol. You definitely do not want anything like a JTM45.

Marshall has made low watt "Plexis" forever. Go look at a 1973x, 1974x, 2061x...18-20w Plexis. They're out there and no one buys them. Why? Because people think they want a Plexi but they really don't. They want an 800 and a master volume and even more drive. And they want it dirt cheap. The "Plexi" sound that everyone thinks they want only works as a 50 or 100w amp pumping out 120+ db. You just can't replicate that kind of sound with micro watts. Plexis are hard to deal with, even the little watt versions, and no one wants that kind of headache anymore. They want crutches - channels, effects loops, power scaling, emulations, all of it takes away from an amp.

Marshall is stuck between nostalgia and the modern world. They can't please everyone or anyone. When they modernize, it falls flat because there is so much competition out there. When they stick to what they know, it's great, but tastes have moved away from that for the most part. They're just like Gibson. Gibson is being pulled apart by people that only want the classics, and people yelling at them to modernize. Do you keep your core base happy? Or do you try to get new people to buy your shit? I don't know. It's hard to do both. I'm a fan of both Gibson and Marshall, but neither of them do anything new that interests me. They both blew their wads in the 60s and 70s as far as I'm concerned.

Every time I've heard a JTM45 getting hammered they sound absolutely amazing!

I suppose, when I say "I'd love a plexi" what I actually mean is I would love the sound of a plexi which I could record at small pub gig volume!

Aside from all the stupid shit like trying to sell people Beer Fridges and lifestyle accessories, I think the main problem with Gibson is that when they try and be "modern" they do it by offering pointlessly adorned Les Pauls etc. Keep Les Pauls as Les Pauls 'cos someone shopping for a Les Paul doesn't want a Jackson Dinky! If they really want to modernise, just build something different, don't try and make a Les Paul modern! Then they could actually get away with building really high quality instruments branded Gibson in Korea and sell them for 700 quid.

[Greg_L]

Every time I've heard a JTM45 getting hammered they sound absolutely amazing!

Have you ever heard one in person? I think they sound great too, but I don't see them as working for you. But who knows, buy one and try it!

I suppose, when I say "I'd love a plexi" what I actually mean is I would love the sound of a plexi which I could record at small pub gig volume!

And there's the rub. It's really hard to do. How do you condense the sound and feel and vibe of 130db into a tiny package that's easy to deal with? They still haven't figured it out. Not even Marshall themselves have figured it out. The closest there is in my estimation are those 18w TMB circuits. They sound Plexi-ish in a smaller package, but they're still pretty fucking loud. It's hard to do. The "Plexi sound" varies from model to model and style to style. So many famous player have used Plexis and they all sound wildly different. There are some pretty big gaps between Johnny Ramone and Jimi Hendrix and Paul Kossoff and Eddie Van Halen. Pretty much the same amps though! Some dudes use it pretty clean, some go for dirty blues, some go full balls out. They're all different but they all have that squishy grind and tight bonk that very few other amps can duplicate without sounding messy.

Aside from all the stupid shit like trying to sell people Beer Fridges and lifestyle accessories, I think the main problem with Gibson is that when they try and be "modern" they do it by offering pointlessly adorned Les Pauls etc. Keep Les Pauls as Les Pauls 'cos someone shopping for a Les Paul doesn't want a Jackson Dinky! If they really want to modernise, just build something different, don't try and make a Les Paul modern! Then they could actually get away with building really high quality instruments branded Gibson in Korea and sell them for 700 quid.

But that's not Gibson. Every time Gibson has tried to modernize, even going way back, it's fallen flat. They just don't do "modern" guitars. Their hands are tied by tradition and legacy and no one that actually wants a Gibson wants your Crimson guitar. So it's like, wtf can they do? I think their newest round of "modernized" Les Pauls might be working though. They seem to move off the racks. Something has to be done about their pricing though. Gibson is still an "aspiration" brand for a lot of people. People still work and save to buy a Gibson as a reward/trophy instrument. I think they must do better with quality and pricing to hold that status though. They're losing it. I think they need to strip down and downsize their catalog and make fewer but better quality guitars like they used to. It may be too late though.

[JD01]

Every time I've heard a JTM45 getting hammered they sound absolutely amazing!

Have you ever heard one in person? I think they sound great too, but I don't see them as working for you. But who knows, buy one and try it!

I suppose, when I say "I'd love a plexi" what I actually mean is I would love the sound of a plexi which I could record at small pub gig volume!

And there's the rub. It's really hard to do. How do you condense the sound and feel and vibe of 130db into a tiny package that's easy to deal with? They still haven't figured it out. Not even Marshall themselves have figured it out. The closest there is in my estimation are those 18w TMB circuits. They sound Plexi-ish in a smaller package, but they're still pretty fucking loud. It's hard to do. The "Plexi sound" varies from model to model and style to style. So many famous player have used Plexis and they all sound wildly different. There are some pretty big gaps between Johnny Ramone and Jimi Hendrix and Paul Kossoff and Eddie Van Halen. Pretty much the same amps though! Some dudes use it pretty clean, some go for dirty blues, some go full balls out. They're all different but they all have that squishy grind and tight bonk that very few other amps can duplicate without sounding messy.

Aside from all the stupid shit like trying to sell people Beer Fridges and lifestyle accessories, I think the main problem with Gibson is that when they try and be "modern" they do it by offering pointlessly adorned Les Pauls etc. Keep Les Pauls as Les Pauls 'cos someone shopping for a Les Paul doesn't want a Jackson Dinky! If they really want to modernise, just build something different, don't try and make a Les Paul modern! Then they could actually get away with building really high quality instruments branded Gibson in Korea and sell them for 700 quid.

But that's not Gibson. Every time Gibson has tried to modernize, even going way back, it's fallen flat. They just don't do "modern" guitars. Their hands are tied by tradition and legacy and no one that actually wants a Gibson wants your Crimson guitar. So it's like, wtf can they do? I think their newest round of "modernized" Les Pauls might be working though. They seem to move off the racks. Something has to be done about their pricing though. Gibson is still an "aspiration" brand for a lot of people. People still work and save to buy a Gibson as a reward/trophy instrument. I think they must do better with quality and pricing to hold that status though. They're losing it. I think they need to strip down and downsize their catalog and make fewer but better quality guitars like they used to. It may be too late though.

No, I've just heard a few clips of people playing them cranked - I think Johan might have done one actually. There was one with a boost in front of it that sounded amazing. It didn't flub, chugged (not not in a metalz way), but was also clear, bright and articulate without being wince inducing. I'm definitely not buying one - it would be way too loud by the time I get the sound I'm after.

I think its definitely too late for the current owners. They're in too much debt now that they don't have a prayer of clearing.
The new owners have a good chance to get a fresh start with the guitar brand though, like you said, shrink the catalogue, make a 1500-2000 quid guitar actually feel like a high quality instrument 'cos they're hit and miss... basically make them well enough that people who buy them aspirationally are no longer disappointed. I don't think they can keep making LP/SG Studios in the USA though, the quality of them is so patchy. They'd be much better off making them in Korea while keeping Epiphone in China and Indonesia.

[Greg_L]

I don't think they can keep making LP/SG Studios in the USA though, the quality of them is so patchy. They'd be much better off making them in Korea while keeping Epiphone in China and Indonesia.

That would be worse for them than pretty much anything else they could do. The quality is not that bad considering how many guitars they make in one day. They just need to scale it back. They can still make guitars in the USA and have them be good quality. It's not who makes them or where they're made, it's how many at once. They make so many guitars. So many. Too many.

[JD01]

I don't think they can keep making LP/SG Studios in the USA though, the quality of them is so patchy. They'd be much better off making them in Korea while keeping Epiphone in China and Indonesia.

That would be worse for them than pretty much anything else they could do. The quality is not that bad considering how many guitars they make in one day. They just need to scale it back. They can still make guitars in the USA and have them be good quality. It's not who makes them or where they're made, it's how many at once. They make so many guitars. So many. Too many.

Thing about the studios though, if they started making less of them and building them better they wouldn't be able to charge 700 quid for them.
At 700 quid, they're charging top end WMI Korean money but with nowhere near the quality.

[Greg_L]

Thing about the studios though, if they started making less of them and building them better they wouldn't be able to charge 700 quid for them.
At 700 quid, they're charging top end WMI Korean money but with nowhere near the quality.

No they need to make less of everything. They don't need to "build them better". They just need to do better at the last bit of finishing touches. The majority of Gibsons are good and most people are very happy with their Gibsons. But like everything else, the internet makes it seem like a good Gibson has not left the factory since 1959. I don't think it's true that a $700 Korean something is by default better than a $700 faded base model Studio or SG. I'm at guitar stores damn near every weekend. Base model LTDs and Jacksons and Ibanez aren't any better than a run of the mill base model Gibson. One thing that is in their favor is that all of their guitars are the same fucking thing. A super strat feels like a super strat. If one is a little better than another it's not that noticeable. With something big and clunky like a Les Paul, if something is off it's really noticeable.

[JD01]

Thing about the studios though, if they started making less of them and building them better they wouldn't be able to charge 700 quid for them.
At 700 quid, they're charging top end WMI Korean money but with nowhere near the quality.

No they need to make less of everything. They don't need to "build them better". They just need to do better at the last bit of finishing touches. The majority of Gibsons are good and most people are very happy with their Gibsons. But like everything else, the internet makes it seem like a good Gibson has not left the factory since 1959. I don't think it's true that a $700 Korean something is by default better than a $700 faded base model Studio or SG. I'm at guitar stores damn near every weekend. Base model LTDs and Jacksons and Ibanez aren't any better than a run of the mill base model Gibson. One thing that is in their favor is that all of their guitars are the same fucking thing. A super strat feels like a super strat. If one is a little better than another it's not that noticeable. With something big and clunky like a Les Paul, if something is off it's really noticeable.

Yeah, pay more attention to the finishing touches would be about right. I did spend a fair bit of time trying LP Jrs and various other things a year or so ago. The Jrs were really patchy, stuff that can be sorted, crap setups, sharp frets etc. I didn't try any Ibanez' but the PRSs I tried were all really good, not sure where Yamahas are made these days, but I tried a load of those Yamaha Revstars - they're about 500 quid and they were all really good and really consistent too. Tell you what was really consistent - Mexican teles - they weren't all identical, but they were all similar and there were no clangers in there with something obviously wrong with them.

EDIT: Not jrs - Studios!

[Greg_L]

If it came down to it, I'd rather have a mediocre guitar and a killer amp. I'm fortunate that I have killer everything, but if I had to choose I'd much rather plug an Epiphone into a Plexi rather than plug a Custom Shop Les Paul into a Line 6.

[JD01]

If it came down to it, I'd rather have a mediocre guitar and a killer amp. I'm fortunate that I have killer everything, but if I had to choose I'd much rather plug an Epiphone into a Plexi rather than plug a Custom Shop Les Paul into a Line 6.

True... although that's not really a fair comparison. An Epiphone is pretty good.
You mean my old Indian MDF strat copy into a Plexi if you're bringing Line6 into this!

*I meant Studio not Jr above obviously!

[Greg_L]

True... although that's not really a fair comparison. An Epiphone is pretty good.
You mean my old Indian MDF strat copy into a Plexi if you're bringing Line6 into this!

*I meant Studio not Jr above obviously!

An Epiphone is mediocre. It's not the worst, it's not the best, it's right in the middle.

[JD01]

True... although that's not really a fair comparison. An Epiphone is pretty good.
You mean my old Indian MDF strat copy into a Plexi if you're bringing Line6 into this!

*I meant Studio not Jr above obviously!

An Epiphone is mediocre. It's not the worst, it's not the best, it's right in the middle.

Exactly, but I was imagining the Line6 spider which is about the worst thing since Ghengis Khan.

I actually remember the first time I tried a Spider. Was probably in the early to mid 2000s. At the time I was still using my Bandit and I was visiting a guitar shop for the first time in ages to do anything other than buy strings and picks.

I knew nothing about the current state of amp manufacturing and the guy in the shop plugged me into a Spider. I remember thinking "WTF?!? How have amps got worse in the last 10 years" I was very disappointed after playing a Bandit. Spiders seemed to be the coolest shit in the guitar shop in 2005!

[Greg_L]

I can think of a few amps that sound worse than Line 6 amps. Crates, Marshall MGs....Blackstar!

[JD01]

Haha

[Bubba]

A mate of mine gets a very, very good sound out of his Line 6 Flextone 2x12. He does use a lovely Les Paul standard with a good few years on it, mind you. Strangely, his son used the same combination of guitar and amp in our Frank's band Firecracker when they were kids, and it was a boomy, howly mess half the time.

[muttley]

True... although that's not really a fair comparison. An Epiphone is pretty good.
You mean my old Indian MDF strat copy into a Plexi if you're bringing Line6 into this!

*I meant Studio not Jr above obviously!

An Epiphone is mediocre. It's not the worst, it's not the best, it's right in the middle.

If I was in the market for a guitar I would go Epiphone over Gibson all day. The only difference between an Epiphone and a Gibson is about 750 dollars and the little difference there is I could fix for way less than the cost differential..

As a rule, Epiphone are better than the price point, Gibson are worse than the price point. Its no surprise that Gibson's brand is about to go "pop"

[JD01]

As a rule, Epiphone are better than the price point, Gibson are worse than the price point. Its no surprise that Gibson's brand is about to go "pop"

worse/better than the price point is just a description of value for money... which is why I felt that LP Studios were poor value for money.

I actually went into a smaller shop in Bristol (run by a right grumpy fuck) and he had a 2nd hand LP Studio from the early 90s, so it was about 20odd years old. He wanted more money for it than PMT (our big chain in the UK which I try guitars at in Bristol) wanted for a new LP Studio. When I asked him about it, he didn't give a fuck (naturally) as it was a much nicer guitar than any of the new ones that PMT were selling.

[muttley]

My point is that the gap between the component quality, the manufacture, the set up and the usability of an Epiphone and a Gibson is not reflected in the cost. Gibson have traded on Brand for decades now and people have found them out. I see Gibsons quite regularly with stuff wrong with them that quite frankly is appalling. They dont care, they just want to maximise unit sales and at a maximum cost. It has come back to bite them.. Hopefully some one will come along and buy the company and put their QA and manufacture back on track and reverse the last 30 years because if they dont Gibson will be gone in under two years as we know them. Epiphones brand still has value, Gibson not so much. That is reflected in the warnings they are subject to right now.

[Greg_L]

If I was in the market for a guitar I would go Epiphone over Gibson all day. The only difference between an Epiphone and a Gibson is about 750 dollars and the little difference there is I could fix for way less than the cost differential..

As a rule, Epiphone are better than the price point, Gibson are worse than the price point. Its no surprise that Gibson's brand is about to go "pop"

None of that matters to me. I have my Gibsons and I don't plan on buying any more. Gibson can go away tomorrow and I'd be perfectly fine with it. Mine will probably just go up in value.

Gibson as a guitar brand isn't going anywhere. Gibson corporation and all their side holdings will probably get restructured.

[muttley]

I kind of agree to a point but for me it's important that there is an industry that encourages people to aspire... Gibson have alays been the commercial benchmark.

[Greg_L]

I kind of agree to a point but for me it's important that there is an industry that encourages people to aspire... Gibson have alays been the commercial benchmark.

The guitars aren't going anywhere and lots of brands already build supposedly better guitars. Also, the Gibson hate is mostly overblown internet tilting at windmills. And literally everyone hates Henry. He alone is the catalyst for a lot of Gibson hate. Yeah there are some real duds out there, but there are also tons of great ones. "Tons" being the key word. I don't think any brand churns out guitars like Gibson does. They could probably stand to scale it back and do better on fit and finish. But they'e always going to be expensive. Anything made in the USA is expensive. Most of the brand new 2018s that I've fondled have been pretty good. They're just crazy expensive. And everything before 2015 was mostly pretty damn good and mostly appropriately priced. 2015, 16, and 17s were a rough few years and did a lot to hurt the reputation..