The Tone Thread

New Guitar Day? Obsessed with tone? 10 on the volume dial not enough? Celestion vs. Electrovoice? Cum in, feel the noize.
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Minerman
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:30 pm Haha spandexy!
:smiles:
I just cannot believe nobody recognizes this tune dude...Yes, it's a cover, but I thought it was recognizable compared to the original...Maybe I'm way off, I dunno...lol...
Greg_L wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:30 pmI'm thinking the rhyhm gits are a little thin and a bit fizzy. They sound too scooped to me. I'd hit them with more bass and mids to fill it out. The lead tone is pretty much the same, but not as bad being as it's that kind of lead.
Yeah man, that' why I'd mentioned re-amping 'em with 2 mics, most likely using the i5 for the top end & the '57 for the meat/low end...

The i5 is a little smoother, but the fill guitar parts during the chorus part need to be a little grittier & slightly different so I'm gonna try a few different things to see if I can get it closer to the original...

I'm gonna give you guys a couple of days to see if you can figure out what this song is...All I'll say for now is it came out on an album in 1980, from a band across the pond...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Minerman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:34 pm
I just cannot believe nobody recognizes this tune dude...Yes, it's a cover, but I thought it was recognizable compared to the original...Maybe I'm way off, I dunno...lol...
I have no friggin clue what it could be.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by WhiskeyJack »

OK so I had a little bit of time to do some A/B stuff with the V30 4x12 and Greenback 2x12.

It's fucking night and day :confused: :confused: :confused:

I figured i'd try using roughly the same mic position on each speaker (50/50 cone cap 2inches off) for a true to life A/B but i think that's probably a really ineffective way to do the comparison so i think to give the greenbacks a fair go i need to move the mic around and find a happier place. My ear is just favoring the V30's right now becasue it's what i have spent so long working with.

Even more alarming, for whatever reason i am hearing some serious fizz in the tones i never really took note of before? now in all fairness when I have the tone mixed into some other noise like drums and other guitars and such, It doesn't bother me in the least. But for whatever reason yesterday i really didn't care for it ? Where do i start to zero in on that problem?

I seriously thought i had found my final happy place and again, i do very much like it when it is mixed in with the other shit so it's not an issue in that respect, but on it's own just noodling around in open air i hear it and it sort of fucks with my head. :cuckoo: I actually got bummed out.

I''ll get some clips ups later tonight or tomorrow so you can hear. I got company upstairs waiting for pizza. I'll pop on later.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Greenbacks are very different from V30s. If you're used to V30s, Greenbacks will confuse and infuriate you! And vice versa. They're not similar. You just have to do your work and learn their quirks like any other speaker.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:09 pm
Minerman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:34 pm
I just cannot believe nobody recognizes this tune dude...Yes, it's a cover, but I thought it was recognizable compared to the original...Maybe I'm way off, I dunno...lol...
I have no friggin clue what it could be.
One more hint, one of the guitar players just announced he has Parkinson's a week or so ago & won't be touring with them anymore...Pretty sad, this guy is one of my heroes from way back & is a fuckin' rippin' lead player...

Shan: V30's & Greenbacks are very different animals...I actually do not like V30's very much, but with the Mini Jubilee, it's the best speaker/amp match I have...

With a Greenback, what I've found is while there is more fizz, you can usually get rid of it by a slightly darker mic position, & if there's a high end loss, compensate with the treble knob...I know this ain't much help dude, but you're just gonna have to roll up your sleeves & learn your new speakers...The good thing is after you figure 'em out, just about any Greenback-type speaker (Celestion G12-65 for example) will have similar character, & will be similar to dial in...

The fizz associated with Greenbacks is amp dependent too dude, my EVH LBX, which has way more gain than the Jubilee, also is more fizzy...Usually this can be tamed by turning the volume knob up...

I've got faith in ya man, you'll figure your new speakers/cab out, it's the same thing as your V30 cab, just a matter of finding what works for your setup...It'll happen...
I'm still wanting to downsize to 2x12's myself dude...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:09 pm
Minerman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:34 pm
I just cannot believe nobody recognizes this tune dude...Yes, it's a cover, but I thought it was recognizable compared to the original...Maybe I'm way off, I dunno...lol...
I have no friggin clue what it could be.
Still no clue dude???
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Minerman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:52 pm

Still no clue dude???
No man I really have no idea. The riff or your clue does not ring a bell at all. But you know I probably don't listen to whatever it is. :tongue:
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:48 pm
Minerman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:52 pm

Still no clue dude???
No man I really have no idea. The riff or your clue does not ring a bell at all. But you know I probably don't listen to whatever it is. :tongue:
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy4-MqF ... fE&index=2[/BBvideo]




A/B'ng this I think is ballpark...I need a lot more reverb on the guitars & lot more work on the lead chops though...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Lol. You could have given me one thousand guesses with a billion dollars on the line and I never would have guessed that.

It's good to know to A/B now though. JP's guitar tones definitely have more mids and smoother highs.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:39 pm Lol. You could have given me one thousand guesses with a billion dollars on the line and I never would have guessed that.

It's good to know to A/B now though. JP's guitar tones definitely have more mids and smoother highs.
Yeah dude, we're about the same age, but I think we waded very different parts of the creek growing up... :biggrin:

The 2-mic thing might work good on this dude...It needs a lot of reverb too IMO, especially the guitars...

I think I got in the ballpark with the drums too, needs more room/verb in spots too though...I gotta say I think these fake drums sound better than anything else I've used, that's Superior 3 by itself...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by SweetDan »

Here's a thing I just did: in attempting to make a sound like the chorus from "In The End" on Dookie by Green Day, I thought I'd take a methodical approach to obtaining similar tones:

1) listen to their sound
2) set up my amp, trying to get the sound as close as I could by memory
3) record it
4) listen again and compare
5) tweak the sound w/EQ in the DAW to make it sound more like the original

Granted, mine will never sound like theirs...but, by following that approach, I did make mine sound better.

Then the obvious occurred to me: wouldn't it sound better if I improved the EQ on the amp first, and recorded that sound, rather than messing around with EQ in the DAW?

The following is the result of *that* experiment.

http://eastofcleveland.com/m/moarGeetar ... riment.mp3

0:00-0:17 - take 1, raw
0:18-0:34 - take 2, raw

(I left out the part where you hear take 1 + EQ in the DAW, since the point of this exercise was to get it sounding as good "at the source" as it sounded with post-processing)

To continue the experiment, even though I could hear a difference, I wanted to *see* the difference to better understand what was happening. I slapped a spectrum analyzer on the master fader and grabbed this screenshot:

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(click there -> http://eastofcleveland.com/i/spectrumAnalyzer.jpg <-for the full version)

The left side of the spectrum meter covered "take 1", the right "take 2". You can see the concentration of lower frequencies on the left, and see more evenness in the spread on the right. Sure, we've all heard that you shouldn't "mix with your eyes", but it is interesting to see the effect of tweaking EQ settings to "spread out" the frequencies. even better that it was EQ on the amp.

btw, here are the guitar/amp settings from the two takes (Dean Vendetta - cheapo guitar, bridge humbucker, tone/vol 100%; Vox AD30VT, early-gen modeling amp, in "UK 70's" model, with upgraded speaker (10" Eminence Ragin Cajun); into an SM57 1-1.5" from grille, on-axis, a little inside the cone/dustcap seam):

take 1
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40%, vol=100%, treble=70-80%, mid=70-75%, bass=15%
darker tone (left): gain=70%+, vol=100, treble=15, mid=25, bass=10-ish

take 2
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40%, vol=100%, treble=80%?, mid=35-40, bass=15
darker tone (left): gain=70%+, vol=100, treble=20, mid=20, bass=5

Tn general, and keeping the gain/vol about the same, the "improvement" I made was to thin out the mids and lows, and push up the highs...which means, given the same relative volume, you'll hear more of the higher frequencies and less of the lower ones. That's exactly what you see in the spectrum analyzer. It makes sense, though; that mic position is relatively close, so the lows are probably boosted by proximity effect, and even though I didn't hear it as being "woofy" in the room when I first started, once I started toggling between the Green Day track, take 1 raw track, and take 1 + post-processing EQ, I knew exactly what was "wrong" with the amp settings in the first take.

Anyway, long-winded and maybe explained in a confusing way, but there it is.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by rayc »

Ah, listening and making it happen at the amp - that's the way - I'm a long way from getting to the way properly m'self, but well done.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

SweetDan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:00 pm Here's a thing I just did: in attempting to make a sound like the chorus from "In The End" on Dookie by Green Day, I thought I'd take a methodical approach to obtaining similar tones:
I appreciate what you're doing, but you missed one very simple thing - it just needs more gain. Your EQ'd bits do sound better, but it's just lacking a bit more crunch to get into Dookie territory.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

Greg_L wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:59 pm
SweetDan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:00 pm Here's a thing I just did: in attempting to make a sound like the chorus from "In The End" on Dookie by Green Day, I thought I'd take a methodical approach to obtaining similar tones:
I appreciate what you're doing, but you missed one very simple thing - it just needs more gain. Your EQ'd bits do sound better, but it's just lacking a bit more crunch to get into Dookie territory.
+1 ... it's pretty close now dude, & a tad more gain will make it even closer...
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by SweetDan »

Minerman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:17 am
Greg_L wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:59 pm I appreciate what you're doing, but you missed one very simple thing - it just needs more gain. Your EQ'd bits do sound better, but it's just lacking a bit more crunch to get into Dookie territory.
+1 ... it's pretty close now dude, & a tad more gain will make it even closer...
Like this? http://eastofcleveland.com/m/moarGeetar ... rGainz.mp3 (warning! extremely sloppy double-tracking ahead...)

(edit: notes on settings)
same mic/amp/guitar settings as "take 2", but with only the gain boosted
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40% 65-70%, vol=100%, treble=80%?, mid=35-40, bass=15
darker tone (left): gain=70%+ 100%, vol=100, treble=20, mid=20, bass=5
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Minerman »

SweetDan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:17 am
Minerman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:17 am
+1 ... it's pretty close now dude, & a tad more gain will make it even closer...
Like this?
Comparing your last 2 clips I'll say it's a little better, but listening to "When I Come Around", the intro guitar seems a little dirtier than what you have here to me...Of course in a mix it might be closer than what I think, just my :twocents:
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by WhiskeyJack »

I am not sure if i have posted about the 2x12 in here or not or if it was in the DIY thread but i'll put it here it makes sense.

I had an hour to tinker some more last night with that 2x12 and happened upon something i didn't notice before. The two speakers are angled in on each other. Which sort of makes sense as to why i was getting such a shit recorded tone with them. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why there was so much air in the mic position i chose. Makes total sense why i was getting that off axis sound. I tried ot eyeball an "on axis position and and it really brought things back to life.

I am working from home this week so today at "lunch time" i will run down stairs and grab you all some tones. nothing fancy. some 30 second clips of everything. kind of stoked actually.

the stuff i got last night seemed to be really clippy though using a 40W traynor. not sure if that is the cab or what but i'll figure it out.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Do it!
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

SweetDan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:17 am

Like this? http://eastofcleveland.com/m/moarGeetar ... rGainz.mp3 (warning! extremely sloppy double-tracking ahead...)

(edit: notes on settings)
same mic/amp/guitar settings as "take 2", but with only the gain boosted
brighter tone (right): gain=35-40% 65-70%, vol=100%, treble=80%?, mid=35-40, bass=15
darker tone (left): gain=70%+ 100%, vol=100, treble=20, mid=20, bass=5
Damn sorry I missed this!

I think that's probably closer. Maybe a little fizzy but you need to try it in a mix.
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Re: The Tone Thread

Post by Greg_L »

Okay fuckos, here's the first run-through with the mega-bastard 1987/2204 Plexi 800. If you've followed along with this latest round of mods starting HERE you'll see wtf I'm talking about.

I don't know what to call it. If yall can think of a name for it, I'm open to suggestions. It's a Plexi 1987 Lead and a JCM 800 2204 merged into one.

So anyway, one thing I've noticed already is that the two volumes act differently. It's got a traditional master volume (pre phase inverter) and a PPIMV (post phase inverter). The Plexi half of the amp works better with the traditional master vol cranked and the PPIMV used to tame volume. The 800 half works best with the PPIMV cranked and the traditional master volume controlling volume. So I just kind of went for a compromise between the two and left it the same for both halves. This is my first loud test of the thing, so familiarity and further setting refinements will come in due time. But I must say I'm already more than pleased with the total outcome, and with myself! This thing is killer in person.

So here's a quicky I just did just fucking around. Three sections each, Plexi then pull the pot to engage JCM 800 mode. You can tell when it happens.
First section - Plexi ch vol 4 - JCM 800 gain 4
Second section - Plexi ch vol 7 - JCM 800 gain 7
Third section - Plexi ch vol 10 - JCM 800 gain 10

Gibson Les Paul Custom - Bare Knuckles Riff Raff bridge p/u
Marshall 1987/2204
Presence - 5
Bass - 6
Mid - 6
Treb - 6
Master vol - 7
PPIMV - 10
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion G12-65
Senn MD421 on axis, on grill, dustcap/cone + Shure SM57 on axis, on grill, halfway to edge
Both mics equal blend
No EQ or FX in DAW
2204 65 421+57.mp3
Lemme know what you think. :guru:
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