The Tone Thread

[Minerman]

Theres something I'm not happy with about this latest one, just sounds a bit "messy" this is first takes, but I don't think its shonky playing - the playing isn't that bad. I think I just haven't worked out how to dial in this PRS yet. The PRS is the crunch rhythm on the right after the intro and it continues throughout the song on that side. Just sounds a bit shit. I'd like to try and start using it as I like the way it plays and I'm coaxing some good noises out of it.

I'll re-take the entire track when I've got a good plan for the tones.

To me, it sounds like you need a bit of high end to all the guitars Jdude, though I am known to have overly harsh/bright tracks...

They don't seem to "cut" through the mix like they should, could be something as simple as an eq tweak...The drums are a little loud compared to the guitars, but they should still "cut" through...

My ears ain't what they once were, but it sounds like you've got reverb on all the guitars...A lot of people aren't fans of reverb on rock guitar tracks, but I'm not one of them, I actually like some 'verb myself...If the rhythm gtrs do have 'verb, turn the level on 'em down a little...

Give the treble/presence knob a twist along with the 'verb & see if it helps dude...

[JD01]

Yeah. That's what I'm finding. They're just not cutting through until they're too loud. Gonna retrack this whole thing anyway, but I'd like to have a bit of a plan as I want to get loads of vox done tomorrow too.

[Greg_L]

Theres something I'm not happy with about this latest one, just sounds a bit "messy" this is first takes, but I don't think its shonky playing - the playing isn't that bad. I think I just haven't worked out how to dial in this PRS yet. The PRS is the crunch rhythm on the right after the intro and it continues throughout the song on that side. Just sounds a bit shit. I'd like to try and start using it as I like the way it plays and I'm coaxing some good noises out of it.

I'll re-take the entire track when I've got a good plan for the tones.

It's just same ol same ol - darkness. Dark, muffled, distant sounding tracks.

You know, just say fuck it and go full bright center of cone mic placement and see what happens. Give it a few inches off the grill so you don't mic the "hole" in the speaker sound, but be dead center and see what you get. It might be just what you need.

[SweetDan]

Yeah, nobody meant to to ignore you

I know. I was just trying to let you all know not to bother with those clips...I'll re-track, tweaking the mic position (and maybe the eq settings on the amp) and hopefully give you all something better to listen to.

I like how JD01 said it - the "speaker in a sleeping bag" tone - I got that one down! :-)

[SweetDan]

Tearing away the "sleeping bag" -- here's some new takes:

http://eastofcleveland.com/m/se_idea_2_ ... s_nofx.mp3 - guitar bus, no f/x
http://eastofcleveland.com/m/se_idea_2_guitarBus_fx.mp3 - guitars, with f/x
http://eastofcleveland.com/m/se_idea_2_scratchMix.mp3 - scratch mix for context

(and for contrast, here's the worse, "woolier" version from the other day - http://eastofcleveland.com/m/se_idea_fullRoughMix.mp3)

Turned up the amp, turned down the mic gain, and put the mic (Blue Spark, LDC) dead center, straight in, about 3" off the grille. (For those not wanting to go all the way back 2 pages, the mic in the older/worse version was on the grille, halfway between the center and edge of the speaker.)

I also tweaked the EQ and the gain structure on the right rhythm guitar (Fender twin model) by using a compressor as a boost between the guitar and the amp (I think I actually turned down the gain on the amp slightly).

---

One thing that's confused me is I've read that the brightest mic placement is usually dead center and right on the grille. But whenever I try that, it's a little too muddy, and not quite as bright as when I have it dead center but a few inches from the grille. Can proximity effect be so drastic as to muffle the brightness? Other explanations, anyone?

[cakewalkKaKed]

dan,seems to me its not your miking giving you headaches,but how your hearing it .. the same "blanket" is on the entire mix ...

if your hearing to much top end you will reach for the treble,adjust till the harshness is gone .. same for bottom end,then there's those mysterious mids .. mess and tweak within the daw,tit around with mic placement,read and worry about room treatment e.t.c ... well yeah,thats kinda cool and in the ballpark ... but!

what if your playback system is set up wrong? .. say if your using a fast track hooked up to a laptop,then the laptop goes to a cheaper hifi system with a nice graphic EQ with a smilie/frowny face drawn across it,the hifi eq is the last link in the chain ... any adjustments there will affect what you hear in the room and not the the recording (a blanket over the mix)



balance your system first ... worry about things you cant hear yet later

[Greg_L]

dan,seems to me its not your miking giving you headaches,but how your hearing it .. the same "blanket" is on the entire mix ...

if your hearing to much top end you will reach for the treble,adjust till the harshness is gone .. same for bottom end,then there's those mysterious mids .. mess and tweak within the daw,tit around with mic placement,read and worry about room treatment e.t.c ... well yeah,thats kinda cool and in the ballpark ... but!

what if your playback system is set up wrong? .. say if your using a fast track hooked up to a laptop,then the laptop goes to a cheaper hifi system with a nice graphic EQ with a smilie/frowny face drawn across it,the hifi eq is the last link in the chain ... any adjustments there will affect what you hear in the room and not the the recording (a blanket over the mix)



balance your system first ... worry about things you cant hear yet later

These are all very good points Dan. Your playback system could be lying to you. These new tacks sound much like the other tracks, except the pick noise is gone. Your "mixing blanket" probably your monitoring setup.

[SweetDan]

I'll explain what I've got, and y'all can tell me where I've gone wrong. ;-)

10'x11' (with 11' high ceiling) room, nothing unusual in the way of construction (stick frame, textured/painted drywall, a window at the front), no acoustic treatment (yet; planned, but DIY, so I'll be "doing" for a while). Some bookshelves and a handful of guitars (on stands or hanging on the wall) arranged around the back and side perimeters, some pictures hanging on the walls. Desk is centered and closer to the front wall than the back, the monitors are up on stands about head-high and arranged in an equilateral triangle with my sitting position.

When tracking these guitars, the signal path was: sound source -> mic -> interface -> daw, no other pre-amps or gear; when mixing: daw -> interface -> monitors. Daw is Studio One, running on Windows 7; interface is a Tascam US-122; speakers are JBL LSR 305's.

As far as the blanket being on the entire mix, sure, I've got a way to go in my mixing skills too. So, to avoid that, how am I doing on just the guitars? (Only the guitar busses, including effects - minimal eq, touch of reverb)

Comparing this first isolated example - http://eastofcleveland.com/m/se_idea_guitarBus_fx.mp3 (oh boy! is my pick noise distracting in this one!)
Is the sound quality in the second attempt - http://eastofcleveland.com/m/se_idea_2_guitarBus_fx.mp3 - objectively better (or worse)? In what ways? What did I do "right" (or wrong)? What else could or should I do with this particular tune/song-idea to get to the next level in terms of sound quality?

[JD01]

The 2nd of these clips is much better I reckon - its still a little bit muffly, but not too bad at all. What have you EQ'd? I have a similar problem with my gear and I need to do small of a few db at around 400hz - I actually stick an EQ pedal in the loop for this now, but it can be done fine in your DAW.

[rammer24]

Second one is better for sure. I didn't notice a HUGE differnce in the main guitar, though it is better. But I found the rest of the mix was clearer. Still sounds like it can use more clarity. Maybe it's just a volume thing, like Greg first mentioned. Seems like these clips need to breathe more. In what way? I don't know. But they seem subdued in some way, whether it's EQ, volume, something.

[rammer24]

I added the next guitar track to the clip I posted the other day. Let me know what you think.

I take great care in checking my tuning, so I don't think anything's out of tune. But at times, I hear an intonation clash or something. Let me know if you hear it too. It might be my ears playing tricks on me since I'm listening for it, maybe trying too hard to hear something wrong.

How's the tone on the new guitar track, which now plays the intro?

Purple Stain Git 2.mp3

[Bill L]

Cool tune and great recording. Is it possible the intonation clash is being caused by your fingering/fretting? I know with me, depending on the guitar I'm using, sometimes if I fret too hard it sharpens (some of) the notes. Or if I pull on the neck using an SG, that will sharpen the notes; especially open chords. Or possibly an uneven technique in chording can pull 1 or more strings just slightly out just based on your posture alone. Just a few things that you might not have thought about.

[rammer24]

Cool tune and great recording. Is it possible the intonation clash is being caused by your fingering/fretting? I know with me, depending on the guitar I'm using, sometimes if I fret too hard it sharpens (some of) the notes. Or if I pull on the neck using an SG, that will sharpen the notes; especially open chords. Or possibly an uneven technique in chording can pull 1 or more strings just slightly out just based on your posture alone. Just a few things that you might not have thought about.

Thanx for listening, Bill.

Yeah, I have a feeling I still have to lear how to "play" my SG's. I have a semi-shitty Strat that I never set up or anything, and I never had any tuning problems. With my 2 SG's, I often find myself re-tracking simple chords. I'm beginning to think it's my (lack of) technique. I have to be careful. Did you hear what I'm talking about? I can't even give you a specific place that I hear it because sometimes I think I hear it and sometimes I don't.

[rammer24]

Oh, and I know most of you know this, but I always feel a need to say it in case someone's listening to me for the first time. This is a drum machine, but it will be replaced by real drums. This is just place holder/click track drums for now.

[Bill L]

Cool tune and great recording. Is it possible the intonation clash is being caused by your fingering/fretting? I know with me, depending on the guitar I'm using, sometimes if I fret too hard it sharpens (some of) the notes. Or if I pull on the neck using an SG, that will sharpen the notes; especially open chords. Or possibly an uneven technique in chording can pull 1 or more strings just slightly out just based on your posture alone. Just a few things that you might not have thought about.

Thanx for listening, Bill.

Yeah, I have a feeling I still have to lear how to "play" my SG's. I have a semi-shitty Strat that I never set up or anything, and I never had any tuning problems. With my 2 SG's, I often find myself re-tracking simple chords. I'm beginning to think it's my (lack of) technique. I have to be careful. Did you hear what I'm talking about? I can't even give you a specific place that I hear it because sometimes I think I hear it and sometimes I don't.

Yes I hear it. My ears aren't good enough to pick out why I'm hearing what I hear but that's why I put those possibilities up. So you were using an SG? Even a slight pull on the neck when chording can create what I hear in spots in your tune. Also pulling some of the chords out of tune would be the next most likely candidate. That happens to me when I learning new chord shapes until the muscle memory kicks in and my posture gets better.

Oh, and I know most of you know this, but I always feel a need to say it in case someone's listening to me for the first time. This is a drum machine, but it will be replaced by real drums. This is just place holder/click track drums for now.

I figured as much

[rammer24]

Yes I hear it.

OK cool. The main thing for me was to make sure it isn't my imagination. I'm going to re-track most of this. They aren't quite scratch tracks, but they aren't intended to be finished tracks, either. So, I wasn't as careful as I would be when I record for real.

Thanx a lot Bill.

[Minerman]

Bill's right Rami, it's just the way you play dude, I do it on all my guitars myself too, so you ain't alone dude...I find myself doing it especially on power chords on my SG too, I think it's like Bill mentioned, we're just pressing a note or two a little harder than we should...IMO there's no need for messing with the intonation or anything dude, just re-track the parts where you catch yourself doing it...

I think the tones on this are pretty good man, as most if not all your tones are & have been for quite a while dude...I personally think you've found your own personal space, where you've very comfortable & are able to just do what you wanna do, without having to worry too much about anything really dude...You've got your workflow down so good, it's almost like muscle memory/reflex...You consistently put out stuff that's top notch man, & at a amazingly fast pace...Everything you've posted for quite a while (you've been doing this way before we all left HR btw) has the same quality, all-around, which is great IMO...

What kind of speaker are you using with your amp??? I've been meaning to mention that another speaker could make a big difference in your tones dude, IE: a Greenback on one side, & V30 on the other could make it sound like 2 completely different rigs...Nothing wrong at all with what you've been doing for a long time now, but just sayin' another/different speaker could give you a little diversity dude...
Don't forget about using different mics too, I'm sure you've got some nice mics you use with your drum kit, you could probably use some of those too...

[rammer24]

Thanx Miner, I really apprecite all that. Yeah, I can't say I'm looking for a new sound. I kind of like the fact that I've found a "sound" that suits my music and my own tastes. Not that I wouldn't mind improving anything that can be improved.

I don't know what kind of speaker it is. I just looked into the back of my amp and all is says is "Specifically Designed for Fender Corporation" on the speaker. It's a 12".

If I was going to change speakers, I'd just as soon buy a new amp. I've managed to get some decent sounds out of this Super Champ, but it wasn't without a LOT of screwing around and even then, I have 2 or 3 slightly different sounds to work with. I'm still thinking about getting a Marshall. I still want to sound like Angus,even though my music isn't really Angus-ian. To me, that's Rock Guitar Sound 101.

I need to practice more with my SG's. I'm kind of guilty of only playing when I write and record. I should really just sit and play more often.

[Minerman]

Thanx Miner, I really apprecite all that. Yeah, I can't say I'm looking for a new sound. I kind of like the fact that I've found a "sound" that suits my music and my own tastes. Not that I wouldn't mind improving anything that can be improved.

I don't know what kind of speaker it is. I just looked into the back of my amp and all is says is "Specifically Designed for Fender Corporation" on the speaker. It's a 12".

If I was going to change speakers, I'd just as soon buy a new amp. I've managed to get some decent sounds out of this Super Champ, but it wasn't without a LOT of screwing around and even then, I have 2 or 3 slightly different sounds to work with. I'm still thinking about getting a Marshall. I still want to sound like Angus,even though my music isn't really Angus-ian. To me, that's Rock Guitar Sound 101.

I need to practice more with my SG's. I'm kind of guilty of only playing when I write and record. I should really just sit and play more often.

Yeah dude, I was just sayin'....I think you'd love an old school type Marshall-y amp to be honest, & I think it'd fit your music well myself...


I think you do a super job with the amp you're using man, you definitely get the best out of your gear...

[rammer24]

Thanx brother.

Not that it matters, but just for the sake of accuray, I have a 10 inch speaker, not a 12". I said 12" by mistake. My Peavey Studio Pro, which collects dust, has a 12" speaker.