The Tone Thread

[Minerman]

They both sound good to me dude, they both sound really similar, almost identical...Since you now know what the real thing sounds like, I'd say your Hallmark clone is right up there with the real-deal Mosrite...
That should make you feel all warm/fuzzy like I did when we did the comparison between your 50w SLP & the first Chupa I had...

[Greg_L]

They both sound good to me dude, they both sound really similar, almost identical...Since you now know what the real thing sounds like, I'd say your Hallmark clone is right up there with the real-deal Mosrite...
That should make you feel all warm/fuzzy like I did when we did the comparison between your 50w SLP & the first Chupa I had...

Thanks dude! Yeah I'm having a good time over here!

[rayc]

I read an interesting discussion last week about matched tubes. one fellow was extolling the virtue of them but another person entered the chat and reckoned that matched tubes create, essentially, the same harmonics so have an even but uncomplicated tone whereas mismatched tubes create different harmonics and that the combination of these creates more complex and better tone.
Thoughts.

[JD01]

I read an interesting discussion last week about matched tubes. one fellow was extolling the virtue of them but another person entered the chat and reckoned that matched tubes create, essentially, the same harmonics so have an even but uncomplicated tone whereas mismatched tubes create different harmonics and that the combination of these creates more complex and better tone.
Thoughts.

Probably makes a barely perceptible difference in anything other than I completely like for like testing environment. There's so many other things that'll have a greater influence.

[Greg_L]

I read an interesting discussion last week about matched tubes. one fellow was extolling the virtue of them but another person entered the chat and reckoned that matched tubes create, essentially, the same harmonics so have an even but uncomplicated tone whereas mismatched tubes create different harmonics and that the combination of these creates more complex and better tone.
Thoughts.

It's true to a degree. There's really no such thing as a perfectly matched set of tubes. So when people talk about "matched" tubes, it just means they're "close enough". You could theoretically have a perfectly matches set of tubes and then you put them in an amp and they aren't matched anymore. Why? Other things matter. You could have a bias resistor that has drifted out of spec or a cap leaking and now your tubes aren't matched anymore because they're drawing different currents. The only real point to matching tubes is to make the amp, and the amp tech, happier. It has nothing to do with tone. Not directly anyway. Matched tubes bias really easily and the output transformer is happy and everyone's drawing the same current and all is well. Does a healthy happy amp sound better than an unhappy amp? Yup, usually. That's probably why some people might think matched tubes might sound better. It's not really the tubes though. It's just a healthy amp. Also, "mismatched" is kind of misleading. How bad of a mismatch are we talking here? A few milliamps difference between power tubes' current draw is nothing. That's technically a mismatch and it's no big deal. Like everything else in music, a little bit of difference is usually a good thing. A little mismatch probably can do something beneficial for tone and not hurt the amp. Get into double-digit milliamp mismatches and you might start noticing bad things. The amp also might work fine and sound great for 50 years. Tube amps aren't as fragile as the internet makes them out to be.

I've got a set of mismatched but matched tubes in one of my amps. They're not actually matched tubes, but I have enough surplus that I can juggle tubes around and find a set that will bias in the same range. Two Tung Sols, an EH, and a JJ? No problem. They all bias up within a few ma of each other and the amp kicks ass all day every day. I personally don't care about the minutia of tubes. Just give me tubes that work and I'm good. Any brand. Don't care.

[rayc]

I figured it was somewhere in between - Groove Tubes make their money buying in tube stock, matching it & rebranding it for a significant mark up and there's lot of cork sniffing about as well.
The same fellow recommended mis matched impedance - in one direction though - can't recall which - for better tone.
I thought he was getting a bit esoteric by that stage.

[Greg_L]

I figured it was somewhere in between - Groove Tubes make their money buying in tube stock, matching it & rebranding it for a significant mark up and there's lot of cork sniffing about as well.
The same fellow recommended mis matched impedance - in one direction though - can't recall which - for better tone.
I thought he was getting a bit esoteric by that stage.

There is a little something to impedance mismatch too. A one step mismatch either way is not a transformer killer. It does sound slightly different, but not necessarily better. That's subjective.

But does any of this stuff really matter? I don't think so. Use matched tubes for the health of your amp and sanity of your tech, and keep your impedance matched for the peace of mind. There are so many other things that impact tone way more significantly than this piddly shit. I bet Scotty Moore and Chuck Berry and Eddie Cochran and Brian Jones and Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page and Hendrix and Johnny Ramone and every other guitar legend never gave one second of thought to any of this.

[Greg_L]

One of these has landed at the house - Marshall JCM 800 2210 from 1986. The loved and/or loathed split-channel 800. Tones to come soon....

20190823_095126.jpg

[Greg_L]

Lol. No interest huh? That's okay. I'm gonna do it anyway.

[Minerman]

Lol. No interest huh? That's okay. I'm gonna do it anyway.

Well fuck man...I know things are slow around here, but I don't think they're that slow...

I'm still playing with my new phaser pedal...So far, I like it, a lot...It doesn't sound "funky" like the vst shit I've used for so long...I was supposed to make some clips, but you know how shit goes...I'll try to get 'em posted up tomorrow...AFAIK, I have the whole day with nothing to do, but we'll see...Seems there's always something comes at me sideways...


What's so bad about that amp??? That's a fuckin' JCM 800 ain't it??? Is that the version with the channel bleed???

[Greg_L]

Well fuck man...I know things are slow around here, but I don't think they're that slow...

I'm still playing with my new phaser pedal...So far, I like it, a lot...It doesn't sound "funky" like the vst shit I've used for so long...I was supposed to make some clips, but you know how shit goes...I'll try to get 'em posted up tomorrow...AFAIK, I have the whole day with nothing to do, but we'll see...Seems there's always something comes at me sideways...

Do it. I rarely use my phaser. It'd be nice to hear someone do something useful with one.

What's so bad about that amp??? That's a fuckin' JCM 800 ain't it??? Is that the version with the channel bleed???

It's a JCM 800, but it's not the JCM 800. I've heard lots of them sound great. It is the notorious channel bleed 800. I don't know what the problem is. Maybe we'll find out. I used this amp briefly with a little side project and I wasn't too thrilled with it, but I was trying to force it to do things it doesn't really wanna do. I wanna see how my usual kinds of tones work with it.

[rayc]

I saw that there was a GL post but assumed it was the same one from the impedance chat. I didn't know this model was disliked ....it certainly looks odd. I look forward to hearing something from it - odds are you'll make it sound good - you usually do.

[Greg_L]

For a lot of people that aren't goofy Marshall nerds like me, they don't know that there are almost a dozen different JCM 800s. The name JCM 800 doesn't actually mean anything other than it's from the 80s....and that wasn't even intentional. It just worked out that way. There are a lot of amps that wear the JCM 800 name and they're all pretty different. The absolute big dogs of the 800 name are the 2203/2204 amps. These split-channel things are like little dogs. They get a lot less love and they are not the same amps as the legendary 2203/2204s.

The split-channel 800s are more like the precursor to the Jubilee....but not as loved as Jubilees.

[JD01]

Lol. No interest huh? That's okay. I'm gonna do it anyway.

I completely missed this. I must have read the thread at a weird time of day or something and didn't have time to respond and then forgot about it.

[Greg_L]

Ok well I've heard enough.

JCM 800 2210 vs JCM 800 2203

2210 "lead channel"
2203 just as it is

Both amps set the same, same cab, same mics, same mic positions.

Gibson Les Paul Traditional - Muttpup PAF bridge pickup
JCM 800 2210 & JCM 800 2203
Presence - 5
Bass - 7
Mid - 7
Treb - 7
Preamp vol - 7
Master vol - 5
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion Vintage 30
Senn MD421 center + Shure SM57 just outside dustcap
Both mics on axis about 2" off grill 50/50 blend
No FX or EQ in DAW

2210.mp3

2203.mp3

[JD01]

Cool. Working from home tomorrow so I'll be able to have a good listen to these on monitors.

I quite like using a phaser as a way of getting lead lines to stand out and sound a bit different without resorting to using a wahwah. I've really not enjoyed playing with a wah at all the last few years. Could be cos my wah is a bit ropey, not sure. I do want a better phaser though

[Minerman]

JCM 800 2210 vs JCM 800 2203

2210 "lead channel"
2203 just as it is

Both amps set the same, same cab, same mics, same mic positions.

Gibson Les Paul Traditional - Muttpup PAF bridge pickup
JCM 800 2210 & JCM 800 2203
Presence - 5
Bass - 7
Mid - 7
Treb - 7
Preamp vol - 7
Master vol - 5
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion Vintage 30
Senn MD421 center + Shure SM57 just outside dustcap
Both mics on axis about 2" off grill 50/50 blend
No FX or EQ in DAW

I'm kinda surprised with these clips Greg...The 2203 is what I expected, bright, cutting & very articulate...The 2210 sounds much thicker in this set of clips, to me anyway...It just seems to have more girth/bottom, with not quite as much "bite"...Neither is better/worse, but they sound a lot different from each other, more so than I expected anyway...

[rayc]

10 Dark versus 03 Light. The 2210 sounds like my amp in the darker tone.

[JD01]

Ok well I've heard enough.

JCM 800 2210 vs JCM 800 2203

2210 "lead channel"
2203 just as it is

Bloody hell, that 2210 is dark. It actually sounds a bit woofy and muffled.
I'm sure you could adjust the EQ and stuff to make it sound better/more like your normal sound if you really wanted to.

[Greg_L]

I'm kinda surprised with these clips Greg...The 2203 is what I expected, bright, cutting & very articulate...The 2210 sounds much thicker in this set of clips, to me anyway...It just seems to have more girth/bottom, with not quite as much "bite"...Neither is better/worse, but they sound a lot different from each other, more so than I expected anyway...

10 Dark versus 03 Light. The 2210 sounds like my amp in the darker tone.

Bloody hell, that 2210 is dark. It actually sounds a bit woofy and muffled.
I'm sure you could adjust the EQ and stuff to make it sound better/more like your normal sound if you really wanted to.

Yeah...I hate the 2210 sound in these clips.

It's everything I don't want in an amp: dark yet brittle. How does that happen???? I don't know, but I hate it. Maybe there's something wrong with this particular amp because I've heard other people sound great with 50w versions. Maybe it's just me. All I know is I can set the 2203 at damn near any setting and it sounds great. The 2210 took forever to get something that is just barely passable.

I'm gonna give it one more try today before it thankfully goes back to it's owner.