The Tone Thread

[TripleM]

I really liked the Peter Gunn and Walk Don't Run clips. Really good.

When I saw the "all 10's" one, I figured it was going to be a mess. But it was closer to good than I thought. Turn down the bass knob and it might not be all that bad.

That is one beautiful guitar.

[Greg_L]

I really liked the Peter Gunn and Walk Don't Run clips. Really good.

When I saw the "all 10's" one, I figured it was going to be a mess. But it was closer to good than I thought. Turn down the bass knob and it might not be all that bad.

That is one beautiful guitar.

Thanks dude.

[WhiskeyJack]

[mention]Greg_L[/mention] Just getting to your latest clips here man and i have literally nothing bad to say. I like them all and i would use them all. The noise is perfect. Speaking only for me and what i like and appreciate it tells a story of an old guitar from a different time coming back to life to keep telling it's story. I love that. Any warts would likely get pretty buried in a mix too. I mean, if i can bury a wrong note string flub in a song and you dummies can't fucking hear it you can definitely bury that noise in a mix as well. That's just me, all most of the commoners will hear is "whats that fucking noise"

I am really quite impressed with the dirty tones. based only off the cleans i had reservations about how it would translate through your behemoths but i cancelled my reservations pretty quick. The P'ups just sounds like more Pissed off P90's and that does it for me dude. I am stoked to hear anything you do with this rig.

Glad you have warmed up to the small neck but i figured it wouldn't take long. I hope you find a happy place with the original pick ups and can make them work for you.

[muttley]

...........

I'm getting two different things though. One of them is normal feedback which I love. Sustain-into-feedback is a beautiful thing. No problem there. The howl I keep mentioning can creep in right in the middle of everything and it doesn't seem to have any root in a harmonic or fundamental of the notes being played. It's like it's own dissonant howl that sits inside of the sound. It's definitely microphonics. I can talk into the pickups and it will come through the amp with enough loudness and/or gain. But I do really like the sounds I'm getting so I'm just gonna live with it and work around it. The replace-the-pickups idea is totally off the table.

Most definitely a microphonic response. Have you isolated that it is both pickups? Is one worse than the other? Does applying a little pressure to the covers change the response? You can often tame some microphonic response by tracking down exactly what is moving in there and where, It is sometimes the coil wire and something else not the coil wire alone. That can be dealt with... sometimes.

[Greg_L]

@Greg_L Just getting to your latest clips here man and i have literally nothing bad to say. I like them all and i would use them all. The noise is perfect. Speaking only for me and what i like and appreciate it tells a story of an old guitar from a different time coming back to life to keep telling it's story. I love that. Any warts would likely get pretty buried in a mix too. I mean, if i can bury a wrong note string flub in a song and you dummies can't fucking hear it you can definitely bury that noise in a mix as well. That's just me, all most of the commoners will hear is "whats that fucking noise"

I am really quite impressed with the dirty tones. based only off the cleans i had reservations about how it would translate through your behemoths but i cancelled my reservations pretty quick. The P'ups just sounds like more Pissed off P90's and that does it for me dude. I am stoked to hear anything you do with this rig.

Glad you have warmed up to the small neck but i figured it wouldn't take long. I hope you find a happy place with the original pick ups and can make them work for you.

Thanks dude. I'm definitely enjoying the dirty tones with this thing. Pissed off P90 is pretty accurate.

Most definitely a microphonic response. Have you isolated that it is both pickups? Is one worse than the other? Does applying a little pressure to the covers change the response? You can often tame some microphonic response by tracking down exactly what is moving in there and where, It is sometimes the coil wire and something else not the coil wire alone. That can be dealt with... sometimes.

It happens with both pickups. They're both about the same. I have not tried applying pressure but I'll give it a shot.

They sound so cool to me though I'm just not gonna mess with them.

[muttley]

It happens with both pickups. They're both about the same. I have not tried applying pressure but I'll give it a shot.

They sound so cool to me though I'm just not gonna mess with them.

If I'm honest mate, to me part of the surf sound and that whole vibe is in the microphonic and resonant flavour of those cheap thrown together pickups. All pups slowly develop some degree of microphonic response over time as the wax deteriorates or air gaps appear around the working parts. Those were never coiul potted as far as I know so the things are held together with resin and the coils are pretty much inaccessible. They are what they are.

If it were me I would leave it alone and just use it for the tone it has become king of hill for. If I wanted to gig it it would just be for one or two tunes and it would stay home the rest of the day.. If I wanted the look I would build one or pick up something like the Hallmark you have. Sounds to me like you have all bases covered well enough. Just go and throw a few pitches now and feel content.

[Greg_L]

If I'm honest mate, to me part of the surf sound and that whole vibe is in the microphonic and resonant flavour of those cheap thrown together pickups. All pups slowly develop some degree of microphonic response over time as the wax deteriorates or air gaps appear around the working parts. Those were never coiul potted as far as I know so the things are held together with resin and the coils are pretty much inaccessible. They are what they are.

If it were me I would leave it alone and just use it for the tone it has become king of hill for. If I wanted to gig it it would just be for one or two tunes and it would stay home the rest of the day.. If I wanted the look I would build one or pick up something like the Hallmark you have. Sounds to me like you have all bases covered well enough. Just go and throw a few pitches now and feel content.

Agreed. I'm keeping it as-is.

When I first saw it I plugged into a Super Reverb at the shop. It hit me like a ton of bricks immediately. That is the sound. It was perfect, even in it's pretty grimy state. Even the wifey, who generally couldn't care less about these types of cork-sniffing details, was like "whoa that sounds awesome". And as I've mentioned, for some reason the microphonics was much much worse in that guitar store than it is here at home. I can't explain it. So I'm good. I'm leaving it alone and will use it as I see fit.

[Greg_L]

Hallmark vs Mosrite. This is a bad cover of an ancient surf tune called Mr Moto. I used an EZ Drummer loop just for simplicity. DI bass.

Mosrite v Hallmark 1.jpg

Did the same song with each guitar using the same amp settings, cab, mic, mic placement, etc.

Hallmark 60 Custom
Mosrite Ventures
Deluxe Reverb kit build - Vibrato channel
Bright switch - on
Volume -5
Treb - 6
Bass - 3
Reverb - 4 for rhythm track, 5 for lead track
Marshall 1960B 4x12 - Celestion G12H30
SM57 on axis, about 3" off grill, halfway across speaker cone
No FX or EQ in DAW

Hallmark 60 Custom

Mr Moto Hallmark.mp3

Mosrite Ventures

Mr Moto Mosrite.mp3

[Lt. Bob]

Man they are VERY close .... to my ears on these speakers the Mosrite is ever so slightly fatter sounding .... the Hallmark is a tiny bit thinner sounding and has a bit more of a sharp edge to the sound.

These are very small tiny differences that you have to really focus on to hear.

I see that, looking at the website the 65 custom is closer to the Mosrite as it does not have binding on the body and apparently a bolt-on neck since they mention having a brass neck-plate

[WhiskeyJack]

SLICK!!! They both sound super deadly.

Hmm. I am giving a listen on my monitors here and i am hearing things in reverse of bob. I am hearing a fatter hotter Hallmark and a softer mosrite. Maybe a little softer in the mids. it has the same feel as the hallmark just not as hot and sof in the mids i want to say. It has the bottom and it had the top but it is just not as hot and bitey as the Hallmark.

I would almost chalk all that up to age. No expert obviously but thats what i'd put my money on!!!

Curious to know how it felt to play the same on the two different guits. Is the slimmer neck hard to go back and forth on ?

[JD01]

They both sound, great. I think I agree with Bob though, that the hallmark sounds a bit harder edged/more aggressive.

Weirdly, the first thing I noticed is that the Mosrite appears to have a little more reverb.

[Greg_L]

Man they are VERY close .... to my ears on these speakers the Mosrite is ever so slightly fatter sounding .... the Hallmark is a tiny bit thinner sounding and has a bit more of a sharp edge to the sound.

These are very small tiny differences that you have to really focus on to hear.

I see that, looking at the website the 65 custom is closer to the Mosrite as it does not have binding on the body and apparently a bolt-on neck since they mention having a brass neck-plate

SLICK!!! They both sound super deadly.

Hmm. I am giving a listen on my monitors here and i am hearing things in reverse of bob. I am hearing a fatter hotter Hallmark and a softer mosrite. Maybe a little softer in the mids. it has the same feel as the hallmark just not as hot and sof in the mids i want to say. It has the bottom and it had the top but it is just not as hot and bitey as the Hallmark.

I would almost chalk all that up to age. No expert obviously but thats what i'd put my money on!!!

Curious to know how it felt to play the same on the two different guits. Is the slimmer neck hard to go back and forth on ?

They both sound, great. I think I agree with Bob though, that the hallmark sounds a bit harder edged/more aggressive.

Weirdly, the first thing I noticed is that the Mosrite appears to have a little more reverb.

Thanks dudes. You guys are all hearing it correctly....or at least the same as me. I hear it that way too. The Hallmark has more bite, the Mosrite has more warmth and smoothness. The Hallmark sounds more "modern". The Mosrite has a vintage vibe to the sound. The Hallmark also has my own custom made "Fat Pig" pickup, which is a crazy hot single coil. It's even hotter than the Mosrite pickups, but it doesn't howl. I wanted more bite when I first got the guitar and Bob Shade at Hallmark made me my own custom pickup. He now sells them as an option. I have prototype #1.

[mention]WhiskeyJack[/mention] I think part of the difference in sound, to some degree, is that I went from doing the Hallmark tracks right into the Mosrite tracks. No break, no warm up, no cool down, no nuthin. Just switch guitars and go. This seems like maybe no big deal, but it is something with the tiny neck and micro-frets on the Mosrite. I know I had to adjust my playing style. Maybe I picked a little softer because the strings are so close together. I know my fretting isn't as good. Little things like that might contribute to the more subdued sound of the Mosrite. With more adjustment time I could probably have the Mosrite barking and biting like the Hallmark just from better playing alone.

[mention]Lt. Bob[/mention] Yup. The 60 Custom is more like the very earliest Ventures models. The set neck and binding were features on early Mosrites that was quickly abandoned due to costs. They also had a side jack that the 60 Custom does not have. By 1965 the plain body and bolt-on neck became standard and that was how they were. When I got my 60 Custom, the 65 Custom didn't exist. I probably still would have got the 60 Custom though.

[muttley]

The Hallmark sounds good but that Moserite has more grit. Hallmark possibly more clarity.. both classic surf sounding.

[JD01]

Thanks dudes. You guys are all hearing it correctly....or at least the same as me.

Do you hear an apparent increased reverb in the Mosrite version?
I just listened to the first few chords when the guitars come in after the drum intro and I'm still hearing it. The only possible reason I could think that you might have this is down to the microphonic pickups. I can't think of another reason for one guitar sounding like it has more reverb than another.

[Greg_L]

Do you hear an apparent increased reverb in the Mosrite version?
I just listened to the first few chords when the guitars come in after the drum intro and I'm still hearing it. The only possible reason I could think that you might have this is down to the microphonic pickups. I can't think of another reason for one guitar sounding like it has more reverb than another.

I do notice that they "hit" the reverb differently. Even though the Hallmark has a more attacky sound, the amp's reverb responds to the Mosrite a little nicer to me. The Mosrite pickups definitely have much more openness to them. Maybe that lends itself to a lusher reverb sound.

What I really need now is the standalone tube reverb unit. Time to build again.

[JD01]

I do notice that they "hit" the reverb differently. Even though the Hallmark has a more attacky sound, the amp's reverb responds to the Mosrite a little nicer to me. The Mosrite pickups definitely have much more openness to them. Maybe that lends itself to a lusher reverb sound.

What I really need now is the standalone tube reverb unit. Time to build again.

Aside from the slightly warmer tone from the Mosrite the first thing I noticed was a difference in the reverb. When I listen to clips like this in the office on headphones though I tend to use the site player to listen to a few seconds of one clip, then pause, and play the same section of the next clip to get a direct comparison.

[Greg_L]

Aside from the slightly warmer tone from the Mosrite the first thing I noticed was a difference in the reverb. When I listen to clips like this in the office on headphones though I tend to use the site player to listen to a few seconds of one clip, then pause, and play the same section of the next clip to get a direct comparison.

The only thing different with the reverb is that both guitar's rhythm tracks were done with the reverb on 4, and both lead tracks were done with the reverb on 5. That's the only thing that changed. Both guitars got equal treatment.

I did the Hallmark rhythm then the Mosrite rhythm with the same reverb settings. Then I turned the reverb up one notch and did the Hallmark lead then the Mosrite lead.

[Greg_L]

The Hallmark sounds good but that Moserite has more grit. Hallmark possibly more clarity.. both classic surf sounding.

[WhiskeyJack]

Maybe I picked a little softer because the strings are so close together. I know my fretting isn't as good. Little things like that might contribute to the more subdued sound of the Mosrite. With more adjustment time I could probably have the Mosrite barking and biting like the Hallmark just from better playing alone.

Ahhh! yes! I suspect that is likely what it is. I hadn't considered that but i likely would have done the same thing. In time. For sure.

[mention]JD01[/mention] comment about the reverb i also noticed that is really cool.

[Greg_L]

Ahhh! yes! I suspect that is likely what it is. I hadn't considered that but i likely would have done the same thing. In time. For sure.

comment about the reverb i also noticed that is really cool.

We talked about the reverb thing with this amp when I did that Misirlou cover. The harder I drive the amp the less noticeable effect the reverb has because, I assume, it all gets mashed together in the power section compression. I don't know if/how that applies to this little test because the amp isn't working that hard, but whatever happens the reverb is not the same every time with everything. And for surf stuff, the reverb is dialed in much more heavily than one would normally use in most circumstances. Spring reverb is a lot more consistent and predictable when you're not depending on it as being an integral part of the sound.