The Tone Thread

[Minerman]

I don't how much of a difference EL34s in little amps make. I haven't definitively figured it out yet. I'd like to though. Those little Friedmans do kick ass, but they are way overpriced..

Yeah dude, I'm probably going too far on the power tube thing, you gotta remember I get carried away pretty easy with this stuff...I'm probably not giving the EL84 amps a fair shake based on the EVH LBX I had...Trying to look at that amp from a different view, I should've had a more realistic expectation because it's a modern high-gain amp...

The Friedman amps are way overpriced IMO too, the Runt 20 is like $1500 & I think that's the cheapest amp they sell...I'd love to at lest try one out, but that ain't gonna happen where I live...With all the positives of where I live, there are negatives too...

I'm gonna go this week and hunt down the mini Marshalls. I have a GC like 5 minutes from me. I bet they have one, or both.

If/when you get a chance try 'em out & lemme know what you think...Hell, as far as that goes record a couple/few shitty cell phone clips if you get a chance...I know you wouldn't steer anybody wrong on any of this Greg...

[rayc]

The Jubilee sounds more "modern" hi gainy, the Friedman was a little like that but more meaty and the 800 sounded like a Greg amp. My Marshall yard stick is a Greg recording.

[JD01]

Jube - sounds good, but it also sounds darker and more muffled than your usual stuff - surprised by this actually - I expected the jube to sound clear, bright and aggressive. It also seems to have a little cracklyness in the intro when you're picking lightly and is a bit harsh while also being a bit muffled.

Freidman - immediately prefer this to the jube, its similar, but that kind of muffledness is gone and it also doesn't have the slight cracklyness in the intro. Sounds much better for the Crazy Train riffs. This one gets a bit boomy though.

JCM - this is the best to me. By a fucking mile. Clear, bright, articulate, aggressive.

You getting the best out of the JCM is probably a fair bit to do with your familiarity with it, I'm assuming you have it set to roughly what you normally have 'cos it sounds a lot like you, and you're recording something you're totally comfortable with.

I'm sure you can get better out of the Jube and the Friedman if spent a while fiddling with them and really dialing them in. I'd like to hear a clip comparison of you getting the best you can out of them and comparing them to your usual best from the JCM.

[Greg_L]

The Jubilee sounds more "modern" hi gainy, the Friedman was a little like that but more meaty and the 800 sounded like a Greg amp. My Marshall yard stick is a Greg recording.

Ha thanks. If only I could play in a way to get the best out of them.

And I agree with your hearing on this one.

Jube - sounds good, but it also sounds darker and more muffled than your usual stuff - surprised by this actually - I expected the jube to sound clear, bright and aggressive. It also seems to have a little cracklyness in the intro when you're picking lightly and is a bit harsh while also being a bit muffled.

Freidman - immediately prefer this to the jube, its similar, but that kind of muffledness is gone and it also doesn't have the slight cracklyness in the intro. Sounds much better for the Crazy Train riffs. This one gets a bit boomy though.

JCM - this is the best to me. By a fucking mile. Clear, bright, articulate, aggressive.

You getting the best out of the JCM is probably a fair bit to do with your familiarity with it, I'm assuming you have it set to roughly what you normally have 'cos it sounds a lot like you, and you're recording something you're totally comfortable with.

I'm sure you can get better out of the Jube and the Friedman if spent a while fiddling with them and really dialing them in. I'd like to hear a clip comparison of you getting the best you can out of them and comparing them to your usual best from the JCM.

I'm surprised you hear it this way. It's interesting. You're hearing some of it almost opposite of what it is/was. To me the Jube is by far the brightest....in these clips. Even in the room, I was like "fuck this is gonna be a bright recording". And I like bright and clear, but to me the Jube is just too much in this example. The Friedman is the "darkest", which isn't usually the case with these amps. They are super-thick but usually have better articulation than what I did here. You definitely got the JCM right!

I started with the Jubilee just as my buddy left it. Those are his live jamming settings and I just left it alone. I was gonna reamp some of his tracks, but since I literally had the Jubilee head just sitting on top the Friedman, I thought I'd knock out a quick and dirty shootout. That's how I ended up with using all the same EQ settings. The "crackle" in the Jubilee is kind of inherent to that amp. It doesn't really clean up very well from volume rolling. It has a great channel, but doesn't respond that well to just rolling off guitar volume. I don't know if it's the LED clipping or too much compression, but that aspect of it doesn't compare well to something like an 800 or a Plexi. You can go from clean and plinky to full rage on those amps with just guitar volume

I also think the significant increased loudness of the 800 and BE100 tests had a more severe proximity effect on the mics. I can hear it in the BE/JCM clips. The Jube clip doesn't have it as much.

[JD01]

Yeah - I'm on my work cans (Senns) but I listen to music/tones on them all the time.
The Jube seemed to be doing both harsh and a bit muffled all at once.

I'll be interested to see what you get if you do any more recording with them and really take the time to dial them in.

[Greg_L]

Yeah - I'm on my work cans (Senns) but I listen to music/tones on them all the time.
The Jube seemed to be doing both harsh and a bit muffled all at once.

I'll be interested to see what you get if you do any more recording with them and really take the time to dial them in.

The Friedman has so many damn switches and "voices"...I don't even really know where to begin. It has like six mini toggles that add or subtract bypass caps for more gain, less mids, more mids, tighter lows, super fat lows, saturation, etc. It's like every mod Friedman ever did ended up on a switch on this amp. But none of them are switchable on the fly. You need to find your preference and just stay there. I suspect that for me "dialing it in" would be finding a generic rock and roll tone within the amp. I'm not really a riffy rocker that can get that 80s rock kind of sound out of these things. Dudes that can play like that really shine on amps like the Friedman and Jubilee.

[JD01]

Yeah - I'm on my work cans (Senns) but I listen to music/tones on them all the time.
The Jube seemed to be doing both harsh and a bit muffled all at once.

I'll be interested to see what you get if you do any more recording with them and really take the time to dial them in.

The Friedman has so many damn switches and "voices"...I don't even really know where to begin. It has like six mini toggles that add or subtract bypass caps for more gain, less mids, more mids, tighter lows, super fat lows, saturation, etc. It's like every mod Friedman ever did ended up on a switch on this amp. But none of them are switchable on the fly. You need to find your preference and just stay there. I suspect that for me "dialing it in" would be finding a generic rock and roll tone within the amp. I'm not really a riffy rocker that can get that 80s rock kind of sound out of these things. Dudes that can play like that really shine on amps like the Friedman and Jubilee.

I don't like "option paralysis" amps either. I know my H&K might look complicated at first glance. But its three channels with EQ, Master and Gain. No dip switches, fat switches etc.

One of the things that put me off the mini-Jube is that I couldn't just intuitively work out what all of the controls did - and the blokes in the shop couldn't tell me either!

Victory have just released a 100W SuperKraken. Aside from its usual two channels, you've got half a dozen dip switches for "bass focus" "preamp focus" different gain and clean modes and you can even decide between 6L6 and EL34.

[Greg_L]

I don't like "option paralysis" amps either. I know my H&K might look complicated at first glance. But its three channels with EQ, Master and Gain. No dip switches, fat switches etc.

One of the things that put me off the mini-Jube is that I couldn't just intuitively work out what all of the controls did - and the blokes in the shop couldn't tell me either!

Victory have just released a 100W SuperKraken. Aside from its usual two channels, you've got half a dozen dip switches for "bass focus" "preamp focus" different gain and clean modes and you can even decide between 6L6 and EL34.

The Jubilee is actually very simple, it's just that it's very few options are implemented very poorly. It's like a 2.5 channel amp that forces you to use it as a single channel amp.

[JD01]

it's very few options are implemented very poorly.

Yeah - exactly this.

I remember feeling that it felt like a really "one trick pony" (good trick, mind) with a few other options tacked on.

I remember that I couldn't get the different channels/options set up so that they could all sound good when you just flipped between them without having to adjust the EQ or having jumps in volume. The V30 and the H&K were really simple in this regard.

If/when I get more amp heads I'll probably aim for little single channel intentionally simple things - now that I have all the usual bases covered (clean/crunch) etc. I don't have to worry about an amp not doing everything I need it to.

[Greg_L]

Yeah - exactly this.

I remember feeling that it felt like a really "one trick pony" (good trick, mind) with a few other options tacked on.

I remember that I couldn't get the different channels/options set up so that they could all sound good when you just flipped between them without having to adjust the EQ or having jumps in volume. The V30 and the H&K were really simple in this regard.

If/when I get more amp heads I'll probably aim for little single channel intentionally simple things - now that I have all the usual bases covered (clean/crunch) etc. I don't have to worry about an amp not doing everything I need it to.

I strongly believe that most Jubilee users use it for one thing only. Some pro guys use them strictly for the clean channel. They'll have multi-head rigs with a Jube in there just for it's cleans. It does have good cleans for a Marshall. But the vast majority just leave it permanently on the high gain lead channel and use it for that and nothing else. The raunch sound is what makes the Jubilee the Jubilee.

[Greg_L]

I'll be interested to see what you get if you do any more recording with them and really take the time to dial them in.

This happened today....

Bikeage.mp3

It's another one of my wonderful knock-it-out-in-one-try-in-one-afternoon clusterfuck covers.

It's got the Jubilee and the Friedman and that's it.

These are pulled straight out of the mix:

Jubilee intro

intro guitar.mp3

L Rhythm Jubilee

L rhythm Jubilee.mp3

R Rhythm Friedman BE100

R rhythm BE100.mp3

I think, as you can probably tell, when I "dial them in", it just sounds like me.

[Minerman]

This happened today....

It's another one of my wonderful knock-it-out-in-one-try-in-one-afternoon clusterfuck covers.

It's got the Jubilee and the Friedman and that's it.

I think, as you can probably tell, when I "dial them in", it just sounds like me.

These clips sound like totally different amps compared to the last round Greg...100% better, no doubts, period...

The difference in these clips brings to my mind the Mini 800/Jubilee shootout/comparison on Youtube I posted a few days ago...Both amps sounded kinda bland when they were set "evenly", so I'm gonna go out on a limb & say the Mini 800 is probably a good little amp...I already know the Mini Jubilee is a good little amp, so I expect the Mini 800 to be pretty similar...

You're gonna sound like you no matter what, just like all the rest of us...Don't sell yourself short, there ain't many guys that can play/sing/record everything as good as you do, & do it consistently like you do...

And, while I'm at it, don't give me the "I'm a 3-chord guitar player & I suck" routine, 'cause I ain't buyin' it...It's great you're humble & you don't brag, because you really have the talent to back it up if you did, but nigga please...

[JD01]

Good song, Greg. Mix sounds great. The bass playing on this is really good and its a surprisingly serious subject matter for you.

The jube in the intro still has that Crackley thing over the top of it which I don't like.
I think the Friedman sounds great throughout, particularly in the bit around 1:15. I think the chords here, sound clear and defined, but also meaty with a nice crunch.
I actually don't like the Jube soloed much at all - I think its too bright and has that harsh crackly top on it (working from home today so listening on my reference cans and monitors).
I really like the site player for comparing clips like this 'cos you can flip between them really easily pausing them exactly where you want - and I was always finding it a relief to flip back to the Friedman.
The effect is way more pronounced on cans than monitors though - listening on monitors, the Jube just sounds brighter and more gainy - the scratchy/cracklyness is less pronounced.

That being said, they sound excellent together in the mix - which probably says more about how you're much more confident of what will work well in mix compared to what sounds good soloed than I am. If I had that Jube tone, I'd have been trying to make it less bright and chasing down that crackle which would probably result in it sounding muddy and anonymous in the mix.

[Greg_L]

These clips sound like totally different amps compared to the last round Greg...100% better, no doubts, period...

The difference in these clips brings to my mind the Mini 800/Jubilee shootout/comparison on Youtube I posted a few days ago...Both amps sounded kinda bland when they were set "evenly", so I'm gonna go out on a limb & say the Mini 800 is probably a good little amp...I already know the Mini Jubilee is a good little amp, so I expect the Mini 800 to be pretty similar...

You're gonna sound like you no matter what, just like all the rest of us...Don't sell yourself short, there ain't many guys that can play/sing/record everything as good as you do, & do it consistently like you do...

And, while I'm at it, don't give me the "I'm a 3-chord guitar player & I suck" routine, 'cause I ain't buyin' it...It's great you're humble & you don't brag, because you really have the talent to back it up if you did, but nigga please...

Lol. Thanks miner.

I do suck at most things. I can't play jazz or country or metal or whatever. But in my own little slice of the musical sphere I'm pretty good at what I can do.

I just wanted to knock something out with the two amps while I got em. And as I suspected, while the amps do have their own things going on, it still sounds like me....even to me. The way I play, the way I dial in my own tones, I can't not sound like me. I'd be pretty disappointed if I was tone chasing and bought a $3500 dollar Friedman and still sounded like me.

I do think these tones sound better than the shootout tones, but those were set pretty wild. I based all those off my buddy's live Jubilee tone which can be significantly different from the best recorded tone.

Good song, Greg. Mix sounds great. The bass playing on this is really good and its a surprisingly serious subject matter for you.

Thanks, but it's not my song. I wish it was.

The jube in the intro still has that Crackley thing over the top of it which I don't like.
I think the Friedman sounds great throughout, particularly in the bit around 1:15. I think the chords here, sound clear and defined, but also meaty with a nice crunch.
I actually don't like the Jube soloed much at all - I think its too bright and has that harsh crackly top on it (working from home today so listening on my reference cans and monitors).

That "crackle" in the Jubilee tracks is what I'm always complaining about with Jubilees. I call it "harshness". It's always there on every Jubilee I've ever heard. In the mix it just kind of turns into wild crunch so it's not that big of a deal, but it annoys me sometimes. The intro section is the Jubilee's clean channel with the "rhythm clip" engaged. It's just open chord strumming Cmaj and Fmaj7 (fancy). I had to look up what that chord is called. Lol. I know the shape and the sound and play it all the time. No idea what it was called. But anyway, it sounds dirtier than it really is with all that jangle going on. The main track is the lead channel.

I really like the site player for comparing clips like this 'cos you can flip between them really easily pausing them exactly where you want - and I was always finding it a relief to flip back to the Friedman.

That being said, they sound excellent together in the mix - which probably says more about how you're much more confident of what will work well in mix compared to what sounds good soloed than I am. If I had that Jube tone, I'd have been trying to make it less bright and chasing down that crackle which would probably result in it sounding muddy and anonymous in the mix.

Thanks. Yeah it's probably some experience, I guess. I did those shootout clips and immediately knew what to change for a real song, and it pretty much worked I think. And it really didn't take much. These tracks are the same guitar, same cab as the shootout clips and the mics are unchanged and unmoved. Nothing changed on the guitar/cab/mic sides of things. These are still a V30 with a straight i5/off axis 57 blend.

The Jubilee got less treble and presence. That's about it. I didn't change the gain or other EQ settings.
The Friedman got a lot less bass, little more treble, and way less gain. The BE100 track is the regular "BE" channel with the gain around 5.

So that's it. A couple little knob tweaks, and tracking with a purpose instead of dicking around, and the results are pretty different.

[JD01]

Ah, who's the song by originally? (like you said - it just sounds like you)

Also, how do you do your mics? Have you just got a few mic stands or one of them Fredman mic clips that Glenn Fricker is always going on about?
https://www.wilkinsonaudio.com/sm57-fre ... cba1185463

[Greg_L]

Ah, who's the song by originally? (like you said - it just sounds like you)

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WanzlOvGg[/BBvideo]

Also, how do you do your mics? Have you just got a few mic stands or one of them Fredman mic clips that Glenn Fricker is always going on about?
https://www.wilkinsonaudio.com/sm57-fre ... cba1185463

Just regular mic stands.

[JD01]

Cheers, I'm gonna be getting another cab clamp for another mic if I start messing about with multiple mics again.
I haven't got a big enough room to have more mic stands floating around - My chair is only about 2m from the cab as it is and my vocal mic stand is between me and the cab too.

I've not tried any off axis micing before and up until I saw that pic I've always assumed that the off axis mic faces outwards towards the cone, not in towards the cap and I was wondering how you'd set it up.

I've never have spotted that as a Descendants song from your mix - I'm moderately familiar with Milo Goes To College too and that didn't even ring a vague bell.

[Greg_L]

Cheers, I'm gonna be getting another cab clamp for another mic if I start messing about with multiple mics again.
I haven't got a big enough room to have more mic stands floating around - My chair is only about 2m from the cab as it is and my vocal mic stand is between me and the cab too.

I have a few of those cab clamps. I use them live, but they're pretty limiting to me for recording mic placement. I'm using these low profile "kick mic" stands. They have a small but heavy base and their footprint is about the size of a kids shoe. Very unobtrusive.

I've not tried any off axis micing before and up until I saw that pic I've always assumed that the off axis mic faces outwards towards the cone, not in towards the cap and I was wondering how you'd set it up.

That's "reverse off axis". I've done reverse off axis single-miking and it works pretty good. Put the mic dead center on the speaker, and then tilt the capsule end outwards towards the cone. It's not really much different from normal off axis miking at the dustcap seam. Reverse off axis is a little darker. Maybe. Sometimes. The good thing IMO about a straight/normal off axis blend is the natural phase cancellation. It gets rid of the bad stuff without needing to be EQ'd a lot. The off axis mic adds a lot of meat though, so blend it in carefully.

I've never have spotted that as a Descendants song from your mix - I'm moderately familiar with Milo Goes To College too and that didn't even ring a vague bell.

Milo is a legit fucking scientist. Greg Graffins liberal arts PhD pales in comparison to Milo Aukerman's fucking molecular biology PhD.

[JD01]

Cheers, I'm gonna be getting another cab clamp for another mic if I start messing about with multiple mics again.
I haven't got a big enough room to have more mic stands floating around - My chair is only about 2m from the cab as it is and my vocal mic stand is between me and the cab too.

I have a few of those cab clamps. I use them live, but they're pretty limiting to me for recording mic placement. I'm using these low profile "kick mic" stands. They have a small but heavy base and their footprint is about the size of a kids shoe. Very unobtrusive.

I've not tried any off axis micing before and up until I saw that pic I've always assumed that the off axis mic faces outwards towards the cone, not in towards the cap and I was wondering how you'd set it up.

That's "reverse off axis". I've done reverse off axis single-miking and it works pretty good. Put the mic dead center on the speaker, and then tilt the capsule end outwards towards the cone. It's not really much different from normal off axis miking at the dustcap seam. Reverse off axis is a little darker. Maybe. Sometimes. The good thing IMO about a straight/normal off axis blend is the natural phase cancellation. It gets rid of the bad stuff without needing to be EQ'd a lot. The off axis mic adds a lot of meat though, so blend it in carefully.

I've never have spotted that as a Descendants song from your mix - I'm moderately familiar with Milo Goes To College too and that didn't even ring a vague bell.

Milo is a legit fucking scientist. Greg Graffins liberal arts PhD pales in comparison to Milo Aukerman's fucking molecular biology PhD.

Cool - I'll look up kick mic stands.
Basically - I have two surfboards for sale at the moment (basically money that was just sitting in the attic). Hoping to get a over 200 quid out of them. I've already spoken to Mutt about new guts for my tele, I was going to spend the rest of the money on boring shit like mic stands, power supply, XLR cables - you know, utilitarian stuff that is boring to spend money on! Actually [mention]liv_rong[/mention] where did you get your ceiling mounted mic stands from? I want one for my vocal mic so I can get it up and out of the way.

haha, yeah - Milo is a right brain box! Did you ever read that Greg Graffin book I gave you? Even though he lectures biology I think his PhD. was actually science history or something.

[Greg_L]

Cool - I'll look up kick mic stands.
Basically - I have two surfboards for sale at the moment (basically money that was just sitting in the attic). Hoping to get a over 200 quid out of them. I've already spoken to Mutt about new guts for my tele, I was going to spend the rest of the money on boring shit like mic stands, power supply, XLR cables - you know, utilitarian stuff that is boring to spend money on! Actually @liv_rong where did you get your ceiling mounted mic stands from? I want one for my vocal mic so I can get it up and out of the way.

I made my own based off liv's idea. I mounted my drum overheads to ceiling stands.



It's a PA main speaker bracket, some kind of plumbing coupler I found at a hardware store, and regular mic stand with the base removed.

haha, yeah - Milo is a right brain box! Did you ever read that Greg Graffin book I gave you? Even though he lectures biology I think his PhD. was actually science history or something.

I started it but I've got too many books right now. It's in the rotation though. I'm definitely going to get through it. I've got a friend that's big into rock and roll books. He buys them, reads them immediately, and then gives them to me. I've got a stack of autobiographies to get through. I like these kinds of books, but I'm not one to just sit and read too often.