The Tone Thread

[JD01]

OK, been tweaking my rhythm tone a bit again this evening and I'm pretty happy with this.

Its my Crimson with Muttbucker on the left and my tele on the right. I adjusted a bunch of stuff with the tele tone and I think it helps it sit with the Crimson tone much better. Basically I'm well pleased with this, but if anyone has any bright ideas, go for it.

Latest Rhythm Tone.mp3

Latest Rhythm Tone in Mix.mp3

While this was pretty loud in the room, it was a reasonable volume in the house so its the sort of thing I'll be able to carry on doing which is good.

[WhiskeyJack]

OK, been tweaking my rhythm tone a bit again this evening and I'm pretty happy with this.

Its my Crimson with Muttbucker on the left and my tele on the right. I adjusted a bunch of stuff with the tele tone and I think it helps it sit with the Crimson tone much better. Basically I'm well pleased with this, but if anyone has any bright ideas, go for it.

Latest Rhythm Tone.mp3
Latest Rhythm Tone in Mix.mp3

While this was pretty loud in the room, it was a reasonable volume in the house so its the sort of thing I'll be able to carry on doing which is good.

Kudos to this. I am not hearing the seashellish milk crate sound as predominantly as i did in your last tone or two. This definitely works for your sound. There is a notably difference in the two guitars for sure. Crimson has notable more substance. The tele is very much tele just lacking a little wee bit of meat and potatoes. But i think that is just your tele. Nothing at wrong with any of that though. Throw some bass in well mixed and you got a good little sound.

How many layers of guitars have you got going on here? Two on each side or singles?

[JD01]

This I just one on each side. Nothing elaborate at all.

[WhiskeyJack]

This I just one on each side. Nothing elaborate at all.

Nice.

[SweetDan]

It seems like something clicked for me today. About a year ago I upgraded the speaker in my (Vox AD30VT, an early-gen modeling amp), and while it sounded better, I still can't achieve the kind of clarity in my recordings that lots of you have posted. I've tried what I thought were all the "right" mic positions, but it still came out either as too harsh, or as woolly/dark/muffled.

Then this morning, the thing that clicked was remembering some comment about how speakers with the huge dustcaps are super-hard to get mic'd up decently. Mine is one of those. For the types of speakers with the smaller dustcaps, the dustcap/cone seam might be 3/4"-1" from the actual center, while on a speaker like mine, the seam might be 2" or more from the center. It seems totally obvious, but I hadn't thought of this before, but it sunk in today: I needed to move the mic well inside the dustcap/cone seam on my speaker to get it in the position you all might often use. (!)

So, just to understand whether or not my ears deceive me, here are clips recorded from a few positions (mic on-axis, 1/2" from grille for all), and you all can judge whether or not the paragraphs above are crazy talk. (Recording chain: tele-clone, bridge pickup, vol=100%, tone rolled off a hair -> Lovepdal "Champ" clone I built a while ago -> amp at the "boutique clean" setting (and either no f/x or with the on-board compressor effect) -> SM57)

- mic centered - these are too harsh

center.mp3

centerComp.mp3

- off center such that the capsule sits about 1/4" inside the dustcap/cone seam - these are (are these?) "just right"

insideSeam.mp3

insideSeamComp.mp3

- directly over the seam - these are too dull

overSeam.mp3

overSeamComp.mp3

Have I finally done as good as Goldilocks, and found the mic position that's "just right" for this speaker?

[JD01]

Hi Dan,

I still think the ones just inside the seam sound a little on the harsh side.
The ones over the seam sound the best to me, but they also sound a little dark.
Can you try rolling off some of the bass on these, adding some treble in... or both?

[SweetDan]

Hi Dan,

I still think the ones just inside the seam sound a little on the harsh side.
The ones over the seam sound the best to me, but they also sound a little dark.
Can you try rolling off some of the bass on these, adding some treble in... or both?

Do you mean roll off a bit of bass (and boost the highs) in the amp's EQ section, or do you mean trying these EQ moves in the DAW after the fact?

[JD01]

Hi Dan,

I still think the ones just inside the seam sound a little on the harsh side.
The ones over the seam sound the best to me, but they also sound a little dark.
Can you try rolling off some of the bass on these, adding some treble in... or both?

Do you mean roll off a bit of bass (and boost the highs) in the amp's EQ section, or do you mean trying these EQ moves in the DAW after the fact?

On your amp! As a rule of thumb, always try and get it right on the amp first - just use EQ in the DAW as necessary to make things work better in the mix - don't use it to actually craft your tone.

[WhiskeyJack]

I like the one over the seam the best of the three i think as a new starting point. If i were sitting there and had my hands on stuff i'd be inclined to starting nudging the mic little bits back towards the inside of the seam and little bits back away from the grill. If it were me.

I am going to assume that the tone you have coming from your amp is one you like and are happy with so i think tone shaping now comes down to moving the mic around to capture it the best way possible. it is pretty obvious to me that from the center of the cap to over the seam there is a pretty broad layout of tone there. I'd keep tinkering with the mic position.

[Greg_L]

OK, been tweaking my rhythm tone a bit again this evening and I'm pretty happy with this.

Its my Crimson with Muttbucker on the left and my tele on the right. I adjusted a bunch of stuff with the tele tone and I think it helps it sit with the Crimson tone much better. Basically I'm well pleased with this, but if anyone has any bright ideas, go for it.

Latest Rhythm Tone.mp3
Latest Rhythm Tone in Mix.mp3

While this was pretty loud in the room, it was a reasonable volume in the house so its the sort of thing I'll be able to carry on doing which is good.

I don't think that's too bad, but I like your other tones better. These seem super compressed and flattened and lack mids.

[Greg_L]

It seems like something clicked for me today. About a year ago I upgraded the speaker in my (Vox AD30VT, an early-gen modeling amp), and while it sounded better, I still can't achieve the kind of clarity in my recordings that lots of you have posted. I've tried what I thought were all the "right" mic positions, but it still came out either as too harsh, or as woolly/dark/muffled.

Then this morning, the thing that clicked was remembering some comment about how speakers with the huge dustcaps are super-hard to get mic'd up decently. Mine is one of those. For the types of speakers with the smaller dustcaps, the dustcap/cone seam might be 3/4"-1" from the actual center, while on a speaker like mine, the seam might be 2" or more from the center. It seems totally obvious, but I hadn't thought of this before, but it sunk in today: I needed to move the mic well inside the dustcap/cone seam on my speaker to get it in the position you all might often use. (!)

So, just to understand whether or not my ears deceive me, here are clips recorded from a few positions (mic on-axis, 1/2" from grille for all), and you all can judge whether or not the paragraphs above are crazy talk. (Recording chain: tele-clone, bridge pickup, vol=100%, tone rolled off a hair -> Lovepdal "Champ" clone I built a while ago -> amp at the "boutique clean" setting (and either no f/x or with the on-board compressor effect) -> SM57)

- mic centered - these are too harsh
center.mp3
centerComp.mp3


- off center such that the capsule sits about 1/4" inside the dustcap/cone seam - these are (are these?) "just right"
insideSeam.mp3
insideSeamComp.mp3


- directly over the seam - these are too dull
overSeam.mp3
overSeamComp.mp3


Have I finally done as good as Goldilocks, and found the mic position that's "just right" for this speaker?

I think the "over seam" clips sound the best. Thy have some fullness but they aren't dark. They still have some scratchiness though. I think the pedal is not doing you any favors. Modeling amps don't usually need or want to be "pushed" like full tube amps do. You're just adding more unnatural and unnecessary clipping and harshness to the signal. Let the modeling software in the amp do it's job. I think you'll probably do better with just the amp doing it's thing and you finding out where to mic it.

[JD01]

Cheers, mate.
It's bound to be pretty compressed as I'm screwing the amp on 1W mode... I don't exactly have headroom!

I can see what you mean about lacking mids, I think this is close to being the smooth slightly scooped tone I've been looking for.

I'll try it with more mids later in the week.

[Minerman]

It seems like something clicked for me today. About a year ago I upgraded the speaker in my (Vox AD30VT, an early-gen modeling amp), and while it sounded better, I still can't achieve the kind of clarity in my recordings that lots of you have posted. I've tried what I thought were all the "right" mic positions, but it still came out either as too harsh, or as woolly/dark/muffled.

Then this morning, the thing that clicked was remembering some comment about how speakers with the huge dustcaps are super-hard to get mic'd up decently. Mine is one of those. For the types of speakers with the smaller dustcaps, the dustcap/cone seam might be 3/4"-1" from the actual center, while on a speaker like mine, the seam might be 2" or more from the center. It seems totally obvious, but I hadn't thought of this before, but it sunk in today: I needed to move the mic well inside the dustcap/cone seam on my speaker to get it in the position you all might often use. (!)

So, just to understand whether or not my ears deceive me, here are clips recorded from a few positions (mic on-axis, 1/2" from grille for all), and you all can judge whether or not the paragraphs above are crazy talk. (Recording chain: tele-clone, bridge pickup, vol=100%, tone rolled off a hair -> Lovepdal "Champ" clone I built a while ago -> amp at the "boutique clean" setting (and either no f/x or with the on-board compressor effect) -> SM57)

Have I finally done as good as Goldilocks, and found the mic position that's "just right" for this speaker?

I like "over the seam" best out of these Dan, they're not terrible by any means, but I think you just need to tweak your amp first, then address the mic position...Just my , but I always try to get the sound I'm after going into the mic/daw...Easier said than done, I know, but again, these aren't terrible by any means...

Greg made a good point about your modelling amp, might wanna give that a shot too...

I can see what you mean about lacking mids, I think this is close to being the smooth slightly scooped tone I've been looking for.

To me there's something about the lows that's funky Jdude, might just be me though...But if this is closer to what you've been after, then that's all that matters dude...Try using the same settings/mic placement, but give your amp some juice/headroom by using a different output setting...I know the 1w thing is great for low noise (I actually miss my 1 watter for this), but it might help to get closer to what you're after...

I like some of the tones you've posted before a little better, but IMO you've made leaps & bounds since you got the HK/2x12...In short, you've become pretty consistent with your tones since getting the new rig...

[SweetDan]

Think I'm making a bit of progress; thanks, everybody for your comments.

I did some more recording tonight. I experimented with: 1) tweaking the tone controls on the amp, 2) tweaking the mic position, and 3) tweaking the volume of the signal coming from the guitar. Listening back to what I came up with, it seems like 2 & 3 gave me the best bang for the buck, however, and I think I've got a new "best" with this one:

outerEdgeOverSeam.mp3

Differences from previous clips:

- mic (SM57) was still on-axis, maybe a hair further from the grille than previously, and it was over the dustcap so the outer edge of the capsule cover pointed at the cone/dustcap seam

- the guitar volume was rolled back 20-30% compared to the clips I posted the other day

I think the "over seam" clips sound the best. Thy have some fullness but they aren't dark. They still have some scratchiness though. I think the pedal is not doing you any favors. Modeling amps don't usually need or want to be "pushed" like full tube amps do. You're just adding more unnatural and unnecessary clipping and harshness to the signal. Let the modeling software in the amp do it's job. I think you'll probably do better with just the amp doing it's thing and you finding out where to mic it.

Maybe, but I'm not giving up just yet (partly because it seems the next logical step for me to take when I give up on this is to buy a "real" tube amp...and a cabinet, probably...and I ain't got that kind of cash on hand right now ). Here's the clean sound of that amp model setting, without the pedal:

clean.mp3

The output of the pedal was more-or-less at unity (I didn't measure w/an SPL meter, but I was watching where the peaks hit in the DAW when I set up to record, and adjusted the guitar+pedal levels so the peaks while distorted matched the cleans). Because of that I'd guess most of the distortion comes solely from the pedal, not from the pedal pushing things in the amp. The new "best" one to my ears - outerEdgeOverSeam.mp3 - was at 70%-ish on the guitar volume knob -- the guitar wasn't pushing the pedal as hard. For comparison, here's a clip with the guitar vol pot was 100% of the way up:

outerEdgeOverSeam_fullVol.mp3

I know the one at 70% is less harsh than the one at 100% vol.; I don't know if it's "good enough" (but it is better than what I posted the other day, I think).

[Greg_L]

Think I'm making a bit of progress; thanks, everybody for your comments.

I did some more recording tonight. I experimented with: 1) tweaking the tone controls on the amp, 2) tweaking the mic position, and 3) tweaking the volume of the signal coming from the guitar. Listening back to what I came up with, it seems like 2 & 3 gave me the best bang for the buck, however, and I think I've got a new "best" with this one:

outerEdgeOverSeam.mp3


Differences from previous clips:

- mic (SM57) was still on-axis, maybe a hair further from the grille than previously, and it was over the dustcap so the outer edge of the capsule cover pointed at the cone/dustcap seam

- the guitar volume was rolled back 20-30% compared to the clips I posted the other day

I think the "over seam" clips sound the best. Thy have some fullness but they aren't dark. They still have some scratchiness though. I think the pedal is not doing you any favors. Modeling amps don't usually need or want to be "pushed" like full tube amps do. You're just adding more unnatural and unnecessary clipping and harshness to the signal. Let the modeling software in the amp do it's job. I think you'll probably do better with just the amp doing it's thing and you finding out where to mic it.

Maybe, but I'm not giving up just yet (partly because it seems the next logical step for me to take when I give up on this is to buy a "real" tube amp...and a cabinet, probably...and I ain't got that kind of cash on hand right now ). Here's the clean sound of that amp model setting, without the pedal:

clean.mp3


The output of the pedal was more-or-less at unity (I didn't measure w/an SPL meter, but I was watching where the peaks hit in the DAW when I set up to record, and adjusted the guitar+pedal levels so the peaks while distorted matched the cleans). Because of that I'd guess most of the distortion comes solely from the pedal, not from the pedal pushing things in the amp. The new "best" one to my ears - outerEdgeOverSeam.mp3 - was at 70%-ish on the guitar volume knob -- the guitar wasn't pushing the pedal as hard. For comparison, here's a clip with the guitar vol pot was 100% of the way up:

outerEdgeOverSeam_fullVol.mp3


I know the one at 70% is less harsh than the one at 100% vol.; I don't know if it's "good enough" (but it is better than what I posted the other day, I think).

Well one of these sounds significantly better than the other two - the clean clip. That one actually sounds good, and not merely "good enough". It's good. That tells me the pedal is adding to much nastiness.

[SweetDan]

...Let the modeling software in the amp do it's job. I think you'll probably do better with just the amp doing it's thing and you finding out where to mic it.

...Greg made a good point about your modelling amp, might wanna give that a shot too...

Done; no distortion pedal in this clip, just guitar -> (modeling) amp:

noPedal.mp3

It feels like a totally different animal, though, and it sounds like it got all woolly again. (And this is after doing many takes where I'd tweak the gain, volume, and tone controls on the amp.) With the pedal on the sound to me is much more open and present; without, it's ...blah... Tell me if y'all hear something different in this clip.

Well one of these sounds significantly better than the other two - the clean clip. That one actually sounds good, and not merely "good enough". It's good. That tells me the pedal is adding to much nastiness.

So, what could I do, given the gear I've got, to get a good (better than "good enough") distorted sound, when the only thing that sounds good is the modeled clean? (Note there are several amp models on this unit, and maybe their distortion sounds better, but I'd need to spend lots of time with each to get them dialed in.) In my mind, the situation looks like this:

- best: buy a tube amp; pros: best sound, cons: $$$ or $$$$ or $$$$$

- better: choose the best clean amp model, run the guitar through effects pedals into that; pros: cost isn't outrageous (given I'm DIY-ing the pedals); cons: lots of work to sound merely "good enough"

- worst: use only the modeled sounds on the amp; pros: no additional cost at all, cons: worst sound, still quite a bit of work to dial it in

[JD01]

Dan,
Buying a "proper" amp would obviously be your best bet... but you're right, that costs money!
What you could do as a start is buy yourself a 2x12 cab and try using this with your current modelling amp (Which is a little combo with a small speaker isn't it?). I got the 2x12 with Vintage 30s from Thomann and it give me immediate improvements to my tone, even when I still had my Blackstar. I think the cost of getting these sent from Thomann to North America is actually pretty reasonable too so its worth looking in to.

Then, once you have a cab, in future you can look at little tube heads - there's loads of them about now. I know I'm turning into a bit of a Hughes & Kettner evangelist, but the 20W little brother of my amp is a fair bit cheaper. It only has the clean and crunch channels (you wouldn't want the lead channel anyway) but it still has the power scaling feature. If you want to go mega-cheap, the Joyo stuff gets good reviews.

I think part of the "problem" you're having though is similar to what I (and probably everyone else) has when they learn to record - its just gaining experience to learn that what you initially think sounds good isn't necessarily a good recorded sound. You'll get there, your tones are getting better all the time.

Your other option would be to sack off amps all together and just use sims - they're good and cheap now. Minerman has had some cracking results using amplitube - where's the fun in that though, eh?

[JD01]

To me there's something about the lows that's funky Jdude, might just be me though...But if this is closer to what you've been after, then that's all that matters dude...Try using the same settings/mic placement, but give your amp some juice/headroom by using a different output setting...I know the 1w thing is great for low noise (I actually miss my 1 watter for this), but it might help to get closer to what you're after...

I like some of the tones you've posted before a little better, but IMO you've made leaps & bounds since you got the HK/2x12...In short, you've become pretty consistent with your tones since getting the new rig...

Cheers, Miner - I fucking love this amp. I know I bang on about it, but I can't think of anything better at a reasonable price (or any price actually) for a bloke that needs something versatile for a home studio, which takes pedals well and has a wide variety of tones but is also plenty loud enough for gigging if needs be.

When I first recorded this tone I actually texted Whiskey Jack as I thought it was the best tone I'd ever captured! I'm gonna have a little bit of a fiddle with my amp EQ this week (will probably be the weekend now).. i can see what you and Greg are saying and I have some ideas I want to try - the mid control on the amp seems pretty sensitive around the 12:00 position, I might roll off a touch of bass too. If I don't like it I can always just return to this tone.

[JD01]

Think I'm making a bit of progress; thanks, everybody for your comments.

I did some more recording tonight. I experimented with: 1) tweaking the tone controls on the amp, 2) tweaking the mic position, and 3) tweaking the volume of the signal coming from the guitar. Listening back to what I came up with, it seems like 2 & 3 gave me the best bang for the buck, however, and I think I've got a new "best" with this one:

outerEdgeOverSeam.mp3


Differences from previous clips:

- mic (SM57) was still on-axis, maybe a hair further from the grille than previously, and it was over the dustcap so the outer edge of the capsule cover pointed at the cone/dustcap seam

- the guitar volume was rolled back 20-30% compared to the clips I posted the other day

I think the "over seam" clips sound the best. Thy have some fullness but they aren't dark. They still have some scratchiness though. I think the pedal is not doing you any favors. Modeling amps don't usually need or want to be "pushed" like full tube amps do. You're just adding more unnatural and unnecessary clipping and harshness to the signal. Let the modeling software in the amp do it's job. I think you'll probably do better with just the amp doing it's thing and you finding out where to mic it.

Maybe, but I'm not giving up just yet (partly because it seems the next logical step for me to take when I give up on this is to buy a "real" tube amp...and a cabinet, probably...and I ain't got that kind of cash on hand right now ). Here's the clean sound of that amp model setting, without the pedal:

clean.mp3


The output of the pedal was more-or-less at unity (I didn't measure w/an SPL meter, but I was watching where the peaks hit in the DAW when I set up to record, and adjusted the guitar+pedal levels so the peaks while distorted matched the cleans). Because of that I'd guess most of the distortion comes solely from the pedal, not from the pedal pushing things in the amp. The new "best" one to my ears - outerEdgeOverSeam.mp3 - was at 70%-ish on the guitar volume knob -- the guitar wasn't pushing the pedal as hard. For comparison, here's a clip with the guitar vol pot was 100% of the way up:

outerEdgeOverSeam_fullVol.mp3


I know the one at 70% is less harsh than the one at 100% vol.; I don't know if it's "good enough" (but it is better than what I posted the other day, I think).

Outer edge over seem is a bit nicer and brighter - its still a bit scratchy sounding though.
Mmmm, the clean does sounds nice actually.
The full vol. version just magnifies the problems with the 70% clip - just that its a bit scratchy. Maybe like you need to try and go a little farther out from the seem and then if it starts sounding too dark, dial the amp in to be brighter.

No pedal - this one much better to me. The scratchy spikiness is reduced, its still clearly over driving, but way less than when you have the pedal in front. I reckon this is the best of your overdriven clips.

[Greg_L]

Done; no distortion pedal in this clip, just guitar -> (modeling) amp:

noPedal.mp3


It feels like a totally different animal, though, and it sounds like it got all woolly again. (And this is after doing many takes where I'd tweak the gain, volume, and tone controls on the amp.) With the pedal on the sound to me is much more open and present; without, it's ...blah... Tell me if y'all hear something different in this clip.

This one, to me, is much better than any of the with-pedal clips. The crunch is there but it's much smoother. If you'd told me this was an actual tube amp, I'd probably believe it. It pretty much has that small tube amp crunch sound. I think you should use this as sort of a ground zero for future testing.

Now...what you're hearing as "wooly" to me is just a lack of mids. It doesn't sound very forward. You've got plenty of low end, but it's not really muddy. And you have highs, but they're not too spiky. The mids are a little weak so it kind of sounds like there's a hole in the sound and the low/high extremes are easy to hear. At this point is where amp EQ and/or mic position will take over and finalize the sound. You're very close now to where I think you need to be.

So, what could I do, given the gear I've got, to get a good (better than "good enough") distorted sound, when the only thing that sounds good is the modeled clean? (Note there are several amp models on this unit, and maybe their distortion sounds better, but I'd need to spend lots of time with each to get them dialed in.)

Then that's what you need to do. Spend time with those models and figure it out. It's pretty rare that you can just walk up to any amp, stick a mic, and have it be perfect.

In my mind, the situation looks like this:

- best: buy a tube amp; pros: best sound, cons: $$$ or $$$$ or $$$$$

- better: choose the best clean amp model, run the guitar through effects pedals into that; pros: cost isn't outrageous (given I'm DIY-ing the pedals); cons: lots of work to sound merely "good enough"

- worst: use only the modeled sounds on the amp; pros: no additional cost at all, cons: worst sound, still quite a bit of work to dial it in

You don't know that using your amp as it is is "worst". You said yourself that there are models and settings that you aren't familiar with yet. I think you've proven, to me anyway, that running pedals through that amp is not the way to go. A tube amp is a better piece of gear, but they still require the work to dial them in unless you have some simple shit like mine where you just crank it up and go. IMO some small amps require the same learning curve that you're dealing with here. Imagine buying a tube amp and you just don't like it. That's a very real possibility. And the speaker...you can get a nice little amp in a combo or a head/cab with shit speakers. You're pulling your hair out trying to get a good tone, and it's the junk bargain basement speaker fucking you up the whole time. When trying to figure out your amp, the speaker is working against you. Then you have to replace speakers. It's a rabbit hole that I don't think you want to enter yet. Find the tone you want in your modeling amp and then figure out which tube amp you need to go with for later.

Quick story: Before I had my mess of Marshalls, I used friends' amps to record. I'd go to the practice space with a laptop and mics and record guitars there and go back home. The JCM 800 in the room was my go-to amp. I loved that amp and never got a bad tone out of it IMO. That was my sound. When I finally tired of doing all that I decided to get my own amp and I tried to go the small amp route to get my sound. It wasn't happening. I tried a bunch of small amps, bought a small amp, bought a 2x12 cab, and guess what? I don't have that stuff anymore and now I'm sitting here with Marshall stacks because that is the sound I want. How do you get a cranked Marshall sound? With cranked Marshalls, of course. Small amps and small cabs didn't get it done for me. The moral of the story...get a tube amp one day, but not any tube amp will do the job. You need to get the right tube amp. Learn your current amp and use that knowledge to refine your search and hone your skills for later.