The Tone Thread

[Greg_L]

Do these kids today realize how good they have it with all the technology & information at their fingertips???

I don't know, but are they doing any better because of it? Besides the freak youtube shredder...kid music is still dumb.

[rayc]

Yeah,
I agree.
Not something I'd be inclined to use often, if at all BUT as I can't sell the thing for the cost of a decent spring reverb pedal I'll keep it.
It's what the MEL9 pedal needs too so that's a bonus.

[JD01]

Here's some brootalz with the JCM1987 + Tube Screamer. I don't know what I'm doing here.

Gibson Angus SG - Angus sig bridge pickup
Tube Screamer - Drive 9:00 - Volume 3:00 - Tone 10:00
Marshall JCM1987 bastardization - JCM 800 mode
Presence - 5
Bass - 6
Mid - 3.5
Treb - 6
Gain - max
Master vol - 4
PPIMV - max
Marshall 1960A 4x12 - Celestion Greenbacks
MXL R144 on axis, on grill, center - Audix i5 on axis, on grill halfway across cone
Um, about a 60/40 blend i5/r144
No FX or EQ

brootalz.mp3

Bloody Hell, Greg! If 80s metal is what you're going for you've pulled it off perfectly!
I know its not a tone you'd use much, if at all, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it for what it is.

I bet if you rolled back the gain and made it a tiny bit darker you'd have the Bad Religion tone that I really like.

Is it common to mod a Marshall in this way or is it relatively unique?

[JD01]

I've been eyeballin' those Chandler Tube Driver pedals that originally came out in the 80's

Careful you don't fall down the vintage pedal rabbit hole, Miner! There's almost certainly a drive pedal or boost about now for about 50 quid that's even better!

[JD01]

I tried guitar into PA through Reverb tank and from the Line Out into my Marshall.
I disn't think to pull out a single coil guitar - oh well.
The spring must be fairly short - well it is a PA and it would have been for vocals - as the reverb doesn't have a long tail.
Here's a quick demo. 1st phrase reverb is at nought, then at noon then three o'clock then max.
After that a few noodles to try to work out what it has to offer.
reverbtank.mp3

That sounds like a pretty good Spring reverb to me, genuinely authentic sounding. You could do a lot worse than that.
Is there any way that you could just stick that board in the FX loop of your amp and effectively use it as a reverb pedal?

[rayc]

That sounds like a pretty good Spring reverb to me, genuinely authentic sounding. You could do a lot worse than that.
Is there any way that you could just stick that board in the FX loop of your amp and effectively use it as a reverb pedal?

James, there's no0 FX loop in this old beast. I'll have to do what I did this arvo but taht's not difficult.

[JD01]

Do these kids today realize how good they have it with all the technology & information at their fingertips???

I don't know, but are they doing any better because of it? Besides the freak youtube shredder...kid music is still dumb.

I think kids today area really lucky to have all of the gear and opportunities at their fingertips, particularly recording... it would have been amazing when I was younger to have been able to afford to record, but I couldn't have even afforded the most basic setup in the 90s. The setup that I have now - Mic, interface, Reaper is in the realm of burger flipping money which I could have stretched to as a kid.

On being able to learn stuff quickly, there's now heaps of musicians all over the internet than can play like 80s shredders that are effectively self taught. I never had guitar lessons as a kid, but I would have found all the information available invaluable!

The quality of cheap instruments, the quality of cheap recording gear and the tuition/information available has really lowered the cost barrier or learning to be good at music.

[Greg_L]

Bloody Hell, Greg! If 80s metal is what you're going for you've pulled it off perfectly!
I know its not a tone you'd use much, if at all, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it for what it is.

I bet if you rolled back the gain and made it a tiny bit darker you'd have the Bad Religion tone that I really like.

Haha yeah to my untrained ear it seemed kind of more early Metallica than early Ratt. I don't know much about either but I think it's more thrash than spandex. That was max gain from the amp plus a speck of dirt and boost from the Screamer so I could back it all off some and see what happens. If I'd used a V30 it'd probably be much tighter and even more thrashy. Greenbacks are probably the squishiest speakers ever for this kind of sound.

Is it common to mod a Marshall in this way or is it relatively unique?

It's kind of both. I surely didn't invent anything. Turning a Plexi into a cascaded gain amp is as old as me, but I did the first two gain stages in reverse order from what's typical and put it on a switch which is not that common. But it is literally how the JCM 800s were born. A JCM 800 is basically just a cascaded Plexi with a master volume. There are some dudes that turn these things into "Van Halen" or "Randy Rhoads" amps, but then that's all they end up being able to do. Mine's able to still be normal.

[JD01]

Bloody Hell, Greg! If 80s metal is what you're going for you've pulled it off perfectly!
I know its not a tone you'd use much, if at all, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it for what it is.

I bet if you rolled back the gain and made it a tiny bit darker you'd have the Bad Religion tone that I really like.

Haha yeah to my untrained ear it seemed kind of more early Metallica than early Ratt. I don't know much about either but I think it's more thrash than spandex. That was max gain from the amp plus a speck of dirt and boost from the Screamer so I could back it all off some and see what happens. If I'd used a V30 it'd probably be much tighter and even more thrashy. Greenbacks are probably the squishiest speakers ever for this kind of sound.

Is it common to mod a Marshall in this way or is it relatively unique?

It's kind of both. I surely didn't invent anything. Turning a Plexi into a cascaded gain amp is as old as me, but I did the first two gain stages in reverse order from what's typical and put it on a switch which is not that common. But it is literally how the JCM 800s were born. A JCM 800 is basically just a cascaded Plexi with a master volume. There are some dudes that turn these things into "Van Halen" or "Randy Rhoads" amps, but then that's all they end up being able to do. Mine's able to still be normal.

Yeah - when you were doing some of that riffing I was immediately thinking "Ride The Lightning" tone.

You should contact Marshall and explain what you've done - if its fairly unique they'd probably be interested (or horrified)

[Greg_L]

Yeah - when you were doing some of that riffing I was immediately thinking "Ride The Lightning" tone.

You should contact Marshall and explain what you've done - if its fairly unique they'd probably be interested (or horrified)

Lol. Yeah they'd be like "congratulations, you figured out what we came up with in 1975". All I did was put it on a switch, and while I'm proud of my modest work, that alone isn't that remarkable. If Marshall had any interest in listening to their user base they'd have done this forever ago...and probably better. Really, there are only two amps that most people want from Marshall - Plexis and single channel JCM 800s. They are the foundation on which all Marshall tone is built. I merged what I think are the best bits of both into one.

[JD01]

Yeah - when you were doing some of that riffing I was immediately thinking "Ride The Lightning" tone.

You should contact Marshall and explain what you've done - if its fairly unique they'd probably be interested (or horrified)

Lol. Yeah they'd be like "congratulations, you figured out what we came up with in 1975". All I did was put it on a switch, and while I'm proud of my modest work, that alone isn't that remarkable. If Marshall had any interest in listening to their user base they'd have done this forever ago...and probably better. Really, there are only two amps that most people want from Marshall - Plexis and single channel JCM 800s. They are the foundation on which all Marshall tone is built. I merged what I think are the best bits of both into one.

I wish Marshall would "modernise" a bit. I'd love a Plexi with a clean channel, a master volume and emulated out at about 25W. Mini-jube is pretty close.

Basically, I think I'd like the character of a JTM 45 with the versatility of a H&K.... for under a thousand quid.

[Greg_L]

I wish Marshall would "modernise" a bit. I'd love a Plexi with a clean channel, a master volume and emulated out at about 25W. Mini-jube is pretty close.

Basically, I think I'd like the character of a JTM 45 with the versatility of a H&K.... for under a thousand quid.

Lol. You definitely do not want anything like a JTM45.

Marshall has made low watt "Plexis" forever. Go look at a 1973x, 1974x, 2061x...18-20w Plexis. They're out there and no one buys them. Why? Because people think they want a Plexi but they really don't. They want an 800 and a master volume and even more drive. And they want it dirt cheap. The "Plexi" sound that everyone thinks they want only works as a 50 or 100w amp pumping out 120+ db. You just can't replicate that kind of sound with micro watts. Plexis are hard to deal with, even the little watt versions, and no one wants that kind of headache anymore. They want crutches - channels, effects loops, power scaling, emulations, all of it takes away from an amp.

Marshall is stuck between nostalgia and the modern world. They can't please everyone or anyone. When they modernize, it falls flat because there is so much competition out there. When they stick to what they know, it's great, but tastes have moved away from that for the most part. They're just like Gibson. Gibson is being pulled apart by people that only want the classics, and people yelling at them to modernize. Do you keep your core base happy? Or do you try to get new people to buy your shit? I don't know. It's hard to do both. I'm a fan of both Gibson and Marshall, but neither of them do anything new that interests me. They both blew their wads in the 60s and 70s as far as I'm concerned.

[JD01]

I wish Marshall would "modernise" a bit. I'd love a Plexi with a clean channel, a master volume and emulated out at about 25W. Mini-jube is pretty close.

Basically, I think I'd like the character of a JTM 45 with the versatility of a H&K.... for under a thousand quid.

Lol. You definitely do not want anything like a JTM45.

Marshall has made low watt "Plexis" forever. Go look at a 1973x, 1974x, 2061x...18-20w Plexis. They're out there and no one buys them. Why? Because people think they want a Plexi but they really don't. They want an 800 and a master volume and even more drive. And they want it dirt cheap. The "Plexi" sound that everyone thinks they want only works as a 50 or 100w amp pumping out 120+ db. You just can't replicate that kind of sound with micro watts. Plexis are hard to deal with, even the little watt versions, and no one wants that kind of headache anymore. They want crutches - channels, effects loops, power scaling, emulations, all of it takes away from an amp.

Marshall is stuck between nostalgia and the modern world. They can't please everyone or anyone. When they modernize, it falls flat because there is so much competition out there. When they stick to what they know, it's great, but tastes have moved away from that for the most part. They're just like Gibson. Gibson is being pulled apart by people that only want the classics, and people yelling at them to modernize. Do you keep your core base happy? Or do you try to get new people to buy your shit? I don't know. It's hard to do both. I'm a fan of both Gibson and Marshall, but neither of them do anything new that interests me. They both blew their wads in the 60s and 70s as far as I'm concerned.

Every time I've heard a JTM45 getting hammered they sound absolutely amazing!

I suppose, when I say "I'd love a plexi" what I actually mean is I would love the sound of a plexi which I could record at small pub gig volume!

Aside from all the stupid shit like trying to sell people Beer Fridges and lifestyle accessories, I think the main problem with Gibson is that when they try and be "modern" they do it by offering pointlessly adorned Les Pauls etc. Keep Les Pauls as Les Pauls 'cos someone shopping for a Les Paul doesn't want a Jackson Dinky! If they really want to modernise, just build something different, don't try and make a Les Paul modern! Then they could actually get away with building really high quality instruments branded Gibson in Korea and sell them for 700 quid.

[Greg_L]

Every time I've heard a JTM45 getting hammered they sound absolutely amazing!

Have you ever heard one in person? I think they sound great too, but I don't see them as working for you. But who knows, buy one and try it!

I suppose, when I say "I'd love a plexi" what I actually mean is I would love the sound of a plexi which I could record at small pub gig volume!

And there's the rub. It's really hard to do. How do you condense the sound and feel and vibe of 130db into a tiny package that's easy to deal with? They still haven't figured it out. Not even Marshall themselves have figured it out. The closest there is in my estimation are those 18w TMB circuits. They sound Plexi-ish in a smaller package, but they're still pretty fucking loud. It's hard to do. The "Plexi sound" varies from model to model and style to style. So many famous player have used Plexis and they all sound wildly different. There are some pretty big gaps between Johnny Ramone and Jimi Hendrix and Paul Kossoff and Eddie Van Halen. Pretty much the same amps though! Some dudes use it pretty clean, some go for dirty blues, some go full balls out. They're all different but they all have that squishy grind and tight bonk that very few other amps can duplicate without sounding messy.

Aside from all the stupid shit like trying to sell people Beer Fridges and lifestyle accessories, I think the main problem with Gibson is that when they try and be "modern" they do it by offering pointlessly adorned Les Pauls etc. Keep Les Pauls as Les Pauls 'cos someone shopping for a Les Paul doesn't want a Jackson Dinky! If they really want to modernise, just build something different, don't try and make a Les Paul modern! Then they could actually get away with building really high quality instruments branded Gibson in Korea and sell them for 700 quid.

But that's not Gibson. Every time Gibson has tried to modernize, even going way back, it's fallen flat. They just don't do "modern" guitars. Their hands are tied by tradition and legacy and no one that actually wants a Gibson wants your Crimson guitar. So it's like, wtf can they do? I think their newest round of "modernized" Les Pauls might be working though. They seem to move off the racks. Something has to be done about their pricing though. Gibson is still an "aspiration" brand for a lot of people. People still work and save to buy a Gibson as a reward/trophy instrument. I think they must do better with quality and pricing to hold that status though. They're losing it. I think they need to strip down and downsize their catalog and make fewer but better quality guitars like they used to. It may be too late though.

[JD01]

Every time I've heard a JTM45 getting hammered they sound absolutely amazing!

Have you ever heard one in person? I think they sound great too, but I don't see them as working for you. But who knows, buy one and try it!

I suppose, when I say "I'd love a plexi" what I actually mean is I would love the sound of a plexi which I could record at small pub gig volume!

And there's the rub. It's really hard to do. How do you condense the sound and feel and vibe of 130db into a tiny package that's easy to deal with? They still haven't figured it out. Not even Marshall themselves have figured it out. The closest there is in my estimation are those 18w TMB circuits. They sound Plexi-ish in a smaller package, but they're still pretty fucking loud. It's hard to do. The "Plexi sound" varies from model to model and style to style. So many famous player have used Plexis and they all sound wildly different. There are some pretty big gaps between Johnny Ramone and Jimi Hendrix and Paul Kossoff and Eddie Van Halen. Pretty much the same amps though! Some dudes use it pretty clean, some go for dirty blues, some go full balls out. They're all different but they all have that squishy grind and tight bonk that very few other amps can duplicate without sounding messy.

Aside from all the stupid shit like trying to sell people Beer Fridges and lifestyle accessories, I think the main problem with Gibson is that when they try and be "modern" they do it by offering pointlessly adorned Les Pauls etc. Keep Les Pauls as Les Pauls 'cos someone shopping for a Les Paul doesn't want a Jackson Dinky! If they really want to modernise, just build something different, don't try and make a Les Paul modern! Then they could actually get away with building really high quality instruments branded Gibson in Korea and sell them for 700 quid.

But that's not Gibson. Every time Gibson has tried to modernize, even going way back, it's fallen flat. They just don't do "modern" guitars. Their hands are tied by tradition and legacy and no one that actually wants a Gibson wants your Crimson guitar. So it's like, wtf can they do? I think their newest round of "modernized" Les Pauls might be working though. They seem to move off the racks. Something has to be done about their pricing though. Gibson is still an "aspiration" brand for a lot of people. People still work and save to buy a Gibson as a reward/trophy instrument. I think they must do better with quality and pricing to hold that status though. They're losing it. I think they need to strip down and downsize their catalog and make fewer but better quality guitars like they used to. It may be too late though.

No, I've just heard a few clips of people playing them cranked - I think Johan might have done one actually. There was one with a boost in front of it that sounded amazing. It didn't flub, chugged (not not in a metalz way), but was also clear, bright and articulate without being wince inducing. I'm definitely not buying one - it would be way too loud by the time I get the sound I'm after.

I think its definitely too late for the current owners. They're in too much debt now that they don't have a prayer of clearing.
The new owners have a good chance to get a fresh start with the guitar brand though, like you said, shrink the catalogue, make a 1500-2000 quid guitar actually feel like a high quality instrument 'cos they're hit and miss... basically make them well enough that people who buy them aspirationally are no longer disappointed. I don't think they can keep making LP/SG Studios in the USA though, the quality of them is so patchy. They'd be much better off making them in Korea while keeping Epiphone in China and Indonesia.

[Greg_L]

I don't think they can keep making LP/SG Studios in the USA though, the quality of them is so patchy. They'd be much better off making them in Korea while keeping Epiphone in China and Indonesia.

That would be worse for them than pretty much anything else they could do. The quality is not that bad considering how many guitars they make in one day. They just need to scale it back. They can still make guitars in the USA and have them be good quality. It's not who makes them or where they're made, it's how many at once. They make so many guitars. So many. Too many.

[JD01]

I don't think they can keep making LP/SG Studios in the USA though, the quality of them is so patchy. They'd be much better off making them in Korea while keeping Epiphone in China and Indonesia.

That would be worse for them than pretty much anything else they could do. The quality is not that bad considering how many guitars they make in one day. They just need to scale it back. They can still make guitars in the USA and have them be good quality. It's not who makes them or where they're made, it's how many at once. They make so many guitars. So many. Too many.

Thing about the studios though, if they started making less of them and building them better they wouldn't be able to charge 700 quid for them.
At 700 quid, they're charging top end WMI Korean money but with nowhere near the quality.

[Greg_L]

Thing about the studios though, if they started making less of them and building them better they wouldn't be able to charge 700 quid for them.
At 700 quid, they're charging top end WMI Korean money but with nowhere near the quality.

No they need to make less of everything. They don't need to "build them better". They just need to do better at the last bit of finishing touches. The majority of Gibsons are good and most people are very happy with their Gibsons. But like everything else, the internet makes it seem like a good Gibson has not left the factory since 1959. I don't think it's true that a $700 Korean something is by default better than a $700 faded base model Studio or SG. I'm at guitar stores damn near every weekend. Base model LTDs and Jacksons and Ibanez aren't any better than a run of the mill base model Gibson. One thing that is in their favor is that all of their guitars are the same fucking thing. A super strat feels like a super strat. If one is a little better than another it's not that noticeable. With something big and clunky like a Les Paul, if something is off it's really noticeable.

[JD01]

Thing about the studios though, if they started making less of them and building them better they wouldn't be able to charge 700 quid for them.
At 700 quid, they're charging top end WMI Korean money but with nowhere near the quality.

No they need to make less of everything. They don't need to "build them better". They just need to do better at the last bit of finishing touches. The majority of Gibsons are good and most people are very happy with their Gibsons. But like everything else, the internet makes it seem like a good Gibson has not left the factory since 1959. I don't think it's true that a $700 Korean something is by default better than a $700 faded base model Studio or SG. I'm at guitar stores damn near every weekend. Base model LTDs and Jacksons and Ibanez aren't any better than a run of the mill base model Gibson. One thing that is in their favor is that all of their guitars are the same fucking thing. A super strat feels like a super strat. If one is a little better than another it's not that noticeable. With something big and clunky like a Les Paul, if something is off it's really noticeable.

Yeah, pay more attention to the finishing touches would be about right. I did spend a fair bit of time trying LP Jrs and various other things a year or so ago. The Jrs were really patchy, stuff that can be sorted, crap setups, sharp frets etc. I didn't try any Ibanez' but the PRSs I tried were all really good, not sure where Yamahas are made these days, but I tried a load of those Yamaha Revstars - they're about 500 quid and they were all really good and really consistent too. Tell you what was really consistent - Mexican teles - they weren't all identical, but they were all similar and there were no clangers in there with something obviously wrong with them.

EDIT: Not jrs - Studios!

[Greg_L]

If it came down to it, I'd rather have a mediocre guitar and a killer amp. I'm fortunate that I have killer everything, but if I had to choose I'd much rather plug an Epiphone into a Plexi rather than plug a Custom Shop Les Paul into a Line 6.