The Tone Thread

[muttley]

strictly fingers here too.

[vomitHatSteve]

I play 90% pick and probably 8% fingers and 2% slap-pop. The pop punk kid in me will probably always play with a plectrum. But I do like the the occasional extra smoothness of finger picking, and slap pop just allows you to do some things that picking can't

[Greg_L]

100% pick all the time and I'm fucking great at it.

[WhiskeyJack]

This thing seems pretty cool for those of you hunting for bass stuff.

Finally got around to watching this and man o man. In Lust. Nice Find buddy.

[JD01]

Got around to doing some Tone Comparisons with the ES135. I'm pleased with it, I've recorded it on its own a few times already and I thought it was basically going to sound a lot like my Jr. But it sounds very different. Way lower output, and different to my other guitars... but in a good way, unlike the Mustang which I just didn't like the sound of.

This is just the crunch channel of my H&K into my cab into an Audix i5. No FX or anything but I've bumped the level of the ES135 by 4.5db so that its relatively similar to the other two - when you're comparing tones, quieter ones always sound shit.

Crimson.mp3

Jr.mp3

ES135.mp3

And, 'cos why the fuck not? All Three!

All 3.mp3

[Greg_L]

Got around to doing some Tone Comparisons with the ES135. I'm pleased with it, I've recorded it on its own a few times already and I thought it was basically going to sound a lot like my Jr. But it sounds very different. Way lower output, and different to my other guitars... but in a good way, unlike the Mustang which I just didn't like the sound of.

This is just the crunch channel of my H&K into my cab into an Audix i5. No FX or anything but I've bumped the level of the ES135 by 4.5db so that its relatively similar to the other two - when you're comparing tones, quieter ones always sound shit.

Crimson.mp3
Jr.mp3
ES135.mp3
And, 'cos why the fuck not?
All 3.mp3

Kinda weird that the 135 would have so much less output. It won't ever sound like a Jr, but it's relative output should be the same or maybe even more.

[JD01]

Got around to doing some Tone Comparisons with the ES135. I'm pleased with it, I've recorded it on its own a few times already and I thought it was basically going to sound a lot like my Jr. But it sounds very different. Way lower output, and different to my other guitars... but in a good way, unlike the Mustang which I just didn't like the sound of.

This is just the crunch channel of my H&K into my cab into an Audix i5. No FX or anything but I've bumped the level of the ES135 by 4.5db so that its relatively similar to the other two - when you're comparing tones, quieter ones always sound shit.

Crimson.mp3
Jr.mp3
ES135.mp3
And, 'cos why the fuck not?
All 3.mp3

Kinda weird that the 135 would have so much less output. It won't ever sound like a Jr, but it's relative output should be the same or maybe even more.

Probably the pickup height.

[rayc]

Nice when grouped.

[JD01]

Just checked, the pickup is closer on the Jr compared with the 135. I might adjust it a little.

[JD01]

Nice when grouped.

I've never recorded 3 guitars all playing the same thing with one in the centre before. Cool way of making simple things sound big! Can here the intonation differences between the guitars there though, I've not done any setup work on the ES yet as it plays and sounds good as it is.

[Armistice]

Nice when grouped.

I've never recorded 3 guitars all playing the same thing with one in the centre before. Cool way of making simple things sound big! Can here the intonation differences between the guitars there though, I've not done any setup work on the ES yet as it plays and sounds good as it is.

I'll have a listen tomorrow once I've chased GF back to her real office and I can get my studio back.

That last thing I did had 6 guitars all playing the same thing - all pretty clean - add bass and drums and it does sound massive, so long as you're accurate - like you said though - simple things.

[Greg_L]

Ok little 100 watt "800" shootout comparing the Weber JCM800 kit vs a real Marshall JCM 800 2203 vs a JMP 2203.

This is a DI guitar track reamped into each amp set exactly the same into the same cab with the same speakers and mics in the same spots. The only variable is the amps themselves.

The Weber 800 kit

Web800.mp3

Marshall JCM 800 2203

JCM800.mp3

Marshall JMP 2203

JMP2203.mp3

All amps set the same...
Gain - 8
Master vol - 4
B/M/T - 6
Pres - 4

Marshall 1960B 4x12
Celestion G12-65
Shure SM57 center, Senn MD421 cone
50/50 blend
No EQ or FX in DAW

[Lt. Bob]

of course they're very similar ... to my ears ( very quick listen) the Weber and the JCM sound very close with the JCM being very slightly brighter ..... so slight that I'm not 100% positive.

The JMP is fairly different sounding ... a lot brighter.

[JD01]

They're all good! The JCM seems a like bit brighter and maybe higher gain than the Weber, the JCM just seems to have more of that Marshall attack, there's a thickness to the Weber than I like though. I preferred it at first, but my ears always take a mo to get accustomed to just how aggressive a loud Marshall sounds in isolation.

My favorite is the JMP though, seems to combine what I like about both of other two.

I'm sure if you did a bit of tweaking you could get them even more similar.

[rayc]

Well, the Webber sounds like it says on the tin. That is to say it sounds really, really good.
Well done Greg. The band mate should be ecstatic.
Excellent reamping by the way.

[Armistice]

Sounds great - perhaps slightly thicker than the real Marshall but nothing that EQing wouldn't fix, if it needed fixing at all, which it doesn't really.

Nice work. Another one done. I also love the tolex from an earlier pic. Should be more of that...

[WhiskeyJack]

Got around to doing some Tone Comparisons with the ES135. I'm pleased with it, I've recorded it on its own a few times already and I thought it was basically going to sound a lot like my Jr. But it sounds very different. Way lower output, and different to my other guitars... but in a good way, unlike the Mustang which I just didn't like the sound of.

This is just the crunch channel of my H&K into my cab into an Audix i5. No FX or anything but I've bumped the level of the ES135 by 4.5db so that its relatively similar to the other two - when you're comparing tones, quieter ones always sound shit.

Crimson.mp3
Jr.mp3
ES135.mp3
And, 'cos why the fuck not?
All 3.mp3

Cool!! I love the sound of the Junior. that's awesome.

I think i read you adjusted the pick up height. Are you going to redo this experiment?

[WhiskeyJack]

Ok little 100 watt "800" shootout comparing the Weber JCM800 kit vs a real Marshall JCM 800 2203 vs a JMP 2203.

This is a DI guitar track reamped into each amp set exactly the same into the same cab with the same speakers and mics in the same spots. The only variable is the amps themselves.

The Weber 800 kit
Web800.mp3

Marshall JCM 800 2203
JCM800.mp3

Marshall JMP 2203
JMP2203.mp3

All amps set the same...
Gain - 8
Master vol - 4
B/M/T - 6
Pres - 4

Marshall 1960B 4x12
Celestion G12-65
Shure SM57 center, Senn MD421 cone
50/50 blend
No EQ or FX in DAW

LOL That JMP is searing.

Maybe my ears are broken and i have had my head out of big dirty guitars for a while but all three of these sound notably different. In contrast to each other that is to say. They all kind smack of some. Marshall sounds but they are all mostly different to my ears. The Marshall just sounds smooth and tight where Weber kit sounds like the Marshall just more lively and a bit more erratic and the JMP just sounds like the Weber run thru an exciter or some shit.

If any of that makes sense?

All very much useable rock and roll tones though. I can only imagine what that stupid loud JMP must sound like standing in front of it holy frig.

[Greg_L]

You're all pretty much correct. The way I hear it...the Weber is a little "thicker" than the JCM 800, which is tighter and punchier than the Weber, and the vintage JMP somehow has all of it combined. And though the master volume was on 4 for all three amps they were loud as fucking hell. Four is around the first tipping point where the power section starts to kick in and it's already way louder than you could use at any normal bar/club gig.

Some interesting (to me) tidbits that sort of explain how these amps can make different sounds when set the same....

1) Pot tapers and human imperfections. Can't do anything about that. Maybe I had the gain on 8 on one amp, 8.3 on another, 7.7 on another. I don't know, I just put it around 8. Maybe they were exactly the same and the gain/volume/tone pots are using their built-in 10% tolerance? I don't know, nor do I care. That's life. Even on their best day these types of amps are very touchy on the volume control. They go from not enough to blow your face off real easily. You can also tell in the clips that the JMP is louder at "4" than the other two. I chalk that up to pot taper.

2) Tubes. The weber has brand new chinese tubes. The JCM has well-worn in JJs. The JMP has it's actual vintage preamp tubes still in it. Does it matter? Maybe a little. I'm not a huge believer in tubes making a lot of difference if they're good. Swapping good tubes for good tubes is usually diminishing returns cork-sniffery. I do know for a fact that chinese tubes do tend to be a little "hotter" though. That could explain some of the gain and thickness of the Weber. They're also microphonic because they're chinese. I had to swap the Weber's three12AX7s around several times to find the best combination. Better tubes in the Weber might yield much different results.

3) Filtering and voltages. In my mind this is where things really happen. The Weber is configured like a 50w Marshall and/or late-80s 100w. It has less filtering and higher preamp voltages than a typical 2203. It has exactly the type of filtering and voltages you'd find in a 50w model. Why'd they do this? No idea. But it makes for a slightly looser low end and a more aggressive bite overall. It sounds like a modern-era 100w JCM 800. The real JCM and JMP have twice the filtering that the Weber kit has and you can hear and feel it from the amps. The low end is super tight and controlled and there's a lot of headroom from both the JCM and JMP. But where the JMP runs away is it has insane voltages like the Weber! So it has all of it. Mucho filtering and crazy high voltages. So it gets controlled aggression...which is a good thing IMO.

4) Components and time. The Weber has brand new no-name kit components. They all measure perfectly fine and are working perfectly fine. The JCM and JMP have settled into what they are and have sought-after vintage caps and resistors all over them. Do they make a sound? I think they do a little bit. There is a "smoothing" kind of effect with worn in parts and/or period-correct new parts. Like a carbon vs metal film resistor. There is a difference depending on where you use them. I expect that the Weber will just get better as it breaks-in...if it doesn't just break.


BTW @WhiskeyJack that JMP is the Canadian Fawn.

[WhiskeyJack]

BTW @WhiskeyJack that JMP is the Canadian Fawn.

What is this telling me? Just that it is it's own little weird sub-genre of a Fawn Marshall?