STRUGGLING SQUIRE

[rayc]

You know of my intonation problems: they persist with my Squire Mustang.
I replaced the strings yesterday. I'd been using Ernie Ball 10+ ones for yonks as my brother in law bought me boxes of them for xmas etc. Mind you he's a back of a truck sort so they probably weren't expensive. additionally they all seemed damaged - small spots of rust on the high strings coming out of the sealed package - rejects I'd suspect.
The guitar was easier to set up with newer, lighter strings, (cheap 9+ as it's an experiment), but intonation is still not right. I did some "research" and it seems the adjustable bridge is often a problem...more specifically the shaft of the bolts adjusting the length.
These screws are too long an imping upon the string. I know that with one string I can hear, acoustically, it "wow" rather than sit at a stable freq.
I also intended to work on the pick up selector as it's flaky in the bridge position but the toggle is a sealed unit so that's not as easy to do as I had hoped.
On the PLUS side there's decent painted shielding in the cavities and, despite some polish residue, things were pretty clean and tidy. Can't blame the Vietnamese manufactures for the design flaw unless they used non specs bolts & selector.

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I'll have to lower some of the saddles too as the height at the 12th fret seems to be part of the intonation issue...to my weak mind as most intonation problems are sharp.
Here's a full shot of the bridge for @Muttley:

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[CrowsofFritz]

Is it across the entire fretboard or just certain frets? I still need to work on my Gretsch and my Chickenbacker. Open chords just sound horrible on them but everything else is fine. I suspect the nut for both of them is just too high and needs to be filed down.

[rayc]

Before today it was everything higher than the 5th fret. Today it's a bit better with some strings close to fine but others not. Lowering the bridge saddles might help me with some but the bridge is a problem given those bolts.

[Greg_L]

The bolts hitting the strings in the saddle is not ideal but I don't see how that would cause intonation issues. The length of the string between the nut and saddle is what matters.

[Lt. Bob]

The bolts hitting the strings in the saddle is not ideal but I don't see how that would cause intonation issues. The length of the string between the nut and saddle is what matters.

it wouldn't ..... only thing it'd do is make them more prone to breaking.
Also saddle height has nothing to do with intonation unless it's so high you're 'bending' the string a lot to get it all the way down to the fretboard.

[rayc]

The bolts hitting the strings in the saddle is not ideal but I don't see how that would cause intonation issues. The length of the string between the nut and saddle is what matters.

It does give those strings an odd sound though. It also becomes harder to lengthen the distance when the bolts pushing down on it not ideal. The Utub consensus was shorten the bolt.

[rayc]

The bolts hitting the strings in the saddle is not ideal but I don't see how that would cause intonation issues. The length of the string between the nut and saddle is what matters.

it wouldn't ..... only thing it'd do is make them more prone to breaking.
Also saddle height has nothing to do with intonation unless it's so high you're 'bending' the string a lot to get it all the way down to the fretboard.

Ah, you see, that may be part of the problem. There's a a fair gap increase working toward the bridge. All strings are fine for the 1st 5 frets and then some go out even after adjustment. I'll have to check the neck but I've an odd visual problem that makes all long straight lines curve so can't do it as a simple visual check.
Oh well, no magic cures.

[Armistice]

Intonation issues caused by having to push too hard to fret a string are going to pull you sharp though... you're saying you're having issues in the other direction.

It's interesting though. I could set a guitar up for perfect intonation and give it to someone else and it sounds wrong, because they happen to play differently and apply a different level of force to fret certain strings in certain ways in certain positions.

[Greg_L]

Ah, you see, that may be part of the problem. There's a a fair gap increase working toward the bridge. All strings are fine for the 1st 5 frets and then some go out even after adjustment. I'll have to check the neck but I've an odd visual problem that makes all long straight lines curve so can't do it as a simple visual check.
Oh well, no magic cures.

Get your neck relief right with a feeler gauge. Eyeballing it won't work unless you can visually see tenths of a millimeter. I'm betting you can't, so feeler gauges get it done.

Neck relief, string height, intonation, string height again. Tuning in between each step. Sneak up on it.

[CeeBee]

Some useful information here
https://guitargearfinder.com/guides/guitar-intonation/

[muttley]

Can you post a slightly zoomed out shot of the bridge and saddles as they are? It looks to me that the saddle screws are far too long for that bridge, specifically as they overlap the hole for the string. That in itself wont help with intonation but as others have said it is a concern for string health and breakage.

On intonation, it is always a matter of trying to best balance out the inherent vagaries of the physics of a vibrating string and the need to employ a 12 note equal temperament scale. There simply is no perfect intonation for all notes at all frets or more importantly all intervals of notes across the fretboard. Its always a trade off. What we do when we intonate is to minimise the affect of 12 note ET and spread the inaccuracies around.

Having said that it sounds that your main problem is above the fifth fret and beyond where the sounding string length shortens. The pitch of any string is dependant on its mass per unit length (gauge), it's tension and it's sounding length. Change one even a bit and you change pitch. On a shorter string length (fretted notes) the tension becomes more critical as it is affecting a shorter length of string. The amount of extra tension you introduce by displacing the string by pressing it to the fret also increases relative to the sounding string length. Both affect pitch.

I would start by changing out the saddle screws and moving the saddles as far back as they can go and then check the neck relief. Then move the saddle forwards by degree until you have the harmonic at the 12th fret the same as the fretted note at the twelfth fret. If you then have intonation issues higher up the neck it is the actual fret placements or neck relief and action that is likely the issue. So...

Is it the original neck?
Is it the original bridge?
What is the measurement from nut to 12 fret?
What is the measurement from nut to saddle?

All those things will point to a larger problem but troubleshoot the basics first. Adjust neck relief, adjust action, adjust saddle position, rinse and repeat. Also don't ignore the nut height but as you seem to be OK up to the fifth fret that maybe unlikely as that is where poor nut height normally manifests. If all that fails then we need to look further. Don't rule out part of it being your keen ears. Good luck.

[rayc]

Can you post a slightly zoomed out shot of the bridge and saddles as they are?
Is it the original neck?
Is it the original bridge?
What is the measurement from nut to 12 fret?
What is the measurement from nut to saddle?

Thanks @Muttley,
Yes, original neck.
Yes, original bridge.
String length nut to 12th fret, (front edge of nut), is 1ft or 30.5cm
From nut to saddle, (I chose the High E because it seems in tune open and at 12th), is 2ft or 61.2cm.
I posted a shot of the entire bridge in the O.P. It's about 4meg so largish and you ought to be able to get a decent look on line or downloaded.

I'll suss out new bolts/screws online tonight.
I have other guitars but this one is easy to play and has a decent sound.
I'll wait for you response before doing anything else.

Thanks in anticipation.

[Armistice]

That's a strange looking bridge set up... the strings shouldn't be able to touch the saddle intonation screws - that's just basic design.

I notice the screws for the E and A strings appear shorter than the other 4 which really don't need to be that long - never seen a bridge with different sized saddle screws before.

But this shouldn't affect intonation anyway.

Could it be that the "back of the truck" strings are just crap Chinese knock off junk that will never intonate properly?

[muttley]

Can you post a slightly zoomed out shot of the bridge and saddles as they are?
Is it the original neck?
Is it the original bridge?
What is the measurement from nut to 12 fret?
What is the measurement from nut to saddle?

Thanks @Muttley,
Yes, original neck.
Yes, original bridge.
String length nut to 12th fret, (front edge of nut), is 1ft or 30.5cm
From nut to saddle, (I chose the High E because it seems in tune open and at 12th), is 2ft or 61.2cm.
I posted a shot of the entire bridge in the O.P. It's about 4meg so largish and you ought to be able to get a decent look on line or downloaded.

I'll suss out new bolts/screws online tonight.
I have other guitars but this one is easy to play and has a decent sound.
I'll wait for you response before doing anything else.

Thanks in anticipation.

OK, seeing as how this is a mustang then the string length sounds about right for a 24" scale length. Thats why I asked. I have seen people swap out necks on those and not take into account the short scale. Not saying you would but just ruling it out.

I would start by taking both E strings and measure the pitch with the saddle as far back as possible then with it as far forward as possible. If the desired pitch sits in that range then we know we can get the thing intonated. Once we have done that we can look at a simple logical method of adjusting neck relief and action and then the saddle to the correct spot. Make sure the thing is up to pitch when taking those measurements.

I will assume you have a body join truss rod adjustment as is usual for the Mustang unless you tell me otherwise.

When you get some saddle screws make sure they are the right thread or possibly just get new saddles complete with new screws, they ain that expensive. If you weren't that far away I could let you have some as I have buckets of them.

Last question. Are there any signs of a neck shim at the body joint? Are the neck bolts down tight?

I will dig out the pic you mention. I must have missed that.

[muttley]

...................
Could it be that the "back of the truck" strings are just crap Chinese knock off junk that will never intonate properly?

That could possibly be a contributing factor. Old strings are not good for intonation as they work harden and become inconsitant across the entire length.

New strings would be better for final set up.

[rayc]

@Muttley,
Sorry for the delay - I was out n about for the day.
No evidence of a shim - the necks is bolted on solid - no movement.
I did a bit more reading and it seems it's the same bridge as used for Squire Strats but they are "string through body" and on Mustangs etc. they use holes at the back. Seems a bit of an el cheapo option to keep the price down, (still only around AUS$320 though rather cheaper when mine was purchased).
I also saw a recommendation to replace the saddles with Allparts SB-0190-010 Non-Tremolo Top-Load Bridge Chrome​

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They seem to avoid the string touch issue but I don't know if it'd be a viable option.

[muttley]

I cant see any holes at the back of the bridge to attach the strings to? Unless you have string thru holes on that Mustang that will be a problem for you unless you just replace the saddles and those saddles look specific to that bridge?

[Greg_L]

@Muttley,
Sorry for the delay - I was out n about for the day.
No evidence of a shim - the necks is bolted on solid - no movement.
I did a bit more reading and it seems it's the same bridge as used for Squire Strats but they are "string through body" and on Mustangs etc. they use holes at the back. Seems a bit of an el cheapo option to keep the price down, (still only around AUS$320 though rather cheaper when mine was purchased).
I also saw a recommendation to replace the saddles with Allparts SB-0190-010 Non-Tremolo Top-Load Bridge Chrome​
all parts sb0190.jpg They seem to avoid the string touch issue but I don't know if it'd be a viable option.

I don't know if that pic is wrong or what but that is a string-through-body bridge.

You need a top-loading hardtail strat bridge. Something like this....
https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-hardw ... I4QAvD_BwE

[rayc]

I cant see any holes at the back of the bridge to attach the strings to? Unless you have string thru holes on that Mustang that will be a problem for you unless you just replace the saddles and those saddles look specific to that bridge?

Yeah, I thought it looked odd. It was recommended by someone who had used it. There're no holes for a string through set up. Yes, the spacing would be completely wrong given the offset nature of the saddle screws/bolts.

[rayc]

I don't know if that pic is wrong or what but that is a string-through-body bridge.

You need a top-loading hardtail strat bridge. Something like this....
https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-hardw ... I4QAvD_BwE

It does, doesn't it?
The Stewmac is pretty much what I already have. I was hoping for a double solution...better saddles and not having the screw/bolt in the way.