New Honey Hunters - Palimpsest

[Armistice]

What now?

"Palimpsest" is a word which has existed on the edge of my consciousness for decades. It would pop up in things I read every few years or so. I'd forgotten about it, but then I saw it again recently in some newspaper article, and at that point I realised I didn't actually know what it meant...

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/palimpsest

Well there's a good metaphor, I thought. And it's such an ugly, difficult word that it really needs to have its own song - I like a challenge.

The actual music was a track that I recorded before I moved north two years ago, and was always trying to figure out what the hell to actually do with. It was one of the tracks slated for the last album that, when I decided I already had enough, I just shelved as it wasn't complete. It was always easier to finish other tunes. Had vague ideas on what I might do, but no real concept. Enter "palimpsest."

So it's a story of redemption, renewal etc. Some (fictional) person who's gone through the fires of life and done some damage to themselves and other, but eventually got clear and clean and ready to start again. You can superimpose a number of different narratives onto that if you try. I decided to keep it general.

Anyway, it's LONG, so perhaps don't even start unless you have 7 minutes to spare - it's simple enough in its musical construction, but it builds as it goes along. And it's sort of meant to intense via repetition, and a bit droney. Musically I added another guitar in the last verse/chorus and some bells. It seemed to need bells. And yes, in some of my finest bass playing, I manage to sit on one single note for the entire song. Also sort of the point - creating tension, if you will - will there be release? Well you have to get through the song to find out. Lots of vocals - got the Armi Massed Choir onto this one to try to turn it into almost a hymn and try to get a bit of epicness in it. Almost a choral thing. My GF likes it, which is a bit of a worry.

I'm already going back in and working on the lead vocal but thought I'd stick it up now anyway and see if anyone has any thoughts.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

MIX 1


DELETED


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

MIX 2

Did a fair bit of detail on the lead vocal - sibilants, plosives, random noises, a nip here and a tuck there on volume, bit more EQing. Minor EQ on the guitar that appears in the final section. Fixed an annoying bass note that wasn't quite in time. Tinkered with the drums a smidge. Nothing major, however. The file is also 0.01MB larger so clearly I've done something... those few extra 1s and 0s be quality..


DELETED


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MIX 3

Did some work on the low end in various ways - mastering EQ and track EQ. I didn't find that, compared to other finalised recordings, the bass was that loud - so figured perhaps there's just a bit much bass generally, so I went in a looked at what had what and what I could do about it. Hopefully an improvement. On JD's suggestion I added a couple of guitars for the final section to give it a bit more oomph. Subtle, but they're there. Tinkered a little with the drums - added a hit or two here and there.

DELETED



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MIX 4

Right then - I went back and compared Mix 3 with songs of mine that are completed on CD and thus got past you all last year. The kick was objectively quieter than normal on this track - I've turned it up to where it nominally sits on previous recordings of this nature. The bass was where it normally is, which is what I thought. I did tinker with the toms for this tune, wanting them to be more of a feature, however I may have wound them up a little, so I've reverted them to their "normal" settings, so that should cut down the booming a bit, I hope. I've softened the snare. I've removed a drum hit or too here and there. I also, in the intro with the humming, bought it in from 100% L and R to about 50% L and R just because it seemed a bit wide on headphones. Only for the intro - it's back wide when the vocal begins. Getting there, I hope...

DELETED



_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


MIX 5

Just adjusting minor EQy things based on critiques and at the other place. Straightened out the beat a little on the final line, possibly not exactly what @JD01 was envisaging but I like it a bit better this way. Copied the bass track and super compressed it and added a little distortion and then fed it back in at a low level to try to give the bass a little more bite.




DELETED


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




Thanks peeps.



Interestingly I've seen the word twice in print since that initial reacquaintance - firstly when, after coming across another word I had no idea about - gaybisty - in The Gulag Archipeligo (not exactly light reading! ) I found this blog post where the person writing said it was the first word which had stumped them since "palimpsest", and then secondly in an article in The Guardian about a documentary on Syd Barrett which I just happened to be reading the other day. It must be getting more popular. You can thank me later for bringing into your lexicon if you're not familiar with it already. :winkn

[JD01]

Well... that made interesting reading. I'll probably get to the song on Monday.

[rayc]

The Syd article wasn't too bad though the writer was at pains to demonstrate their literary worth with obscure references.
Palimpsest as fan boy fantasy. It wasn't really well used as the history wasn't really written to be scratched off.
The song suits the word well: dark, obscure & obscured narrative with hints, suggestions and scratchings with vague suggestions of a monastic choir and Gregorian chant meets cant.
I like it.

[Armistice]

Well... that made interesting reading. I'll probably get to the song on Monday.

Song is probs not as interesting as the rest of the post...

[Armistice]

The Syd article wasn't too bad though the writer was at pains to demonstrate their literary worth with obscure references.
Palimpsest as fan boy fantasy. It wasn't really well used as the history wasn't really written to be scratched off.
The song suits the word well: dark, obscure & obscured narrative with hints, suggestions and scratchings with vague suggestions of a monastic choir and Gregorian chant meets cant.
I like it.

Thanks ray - when girlfriend was listening, and I was explaining how it was building up, when it got to the final section with all the voices more prominent she said "It needs monks!"

And so I got Omnisphere out and found all the chanting monk sounds it has and played with a few, but then I thought better of it.

I know what you mean about the article, and I think the use of the word palimpsest in any article is always going to be someone trying to demonstrate their literary worth with obscure references, or in this case, words. And now, apparently, I'm one of them. Except I'm being ironic, obviously...

Am somewhat disturbed that GF likes it. She's not the Honey Munchers' (as she quaintly calls me) biggest fan. Apparently my old stuff is better than my new stuff. Another one pining for The Jongleurs. Shame neither R nor I are...

[rayc]

[ when girlfriend was listening, and I was explaining how it was building up, when it got to the final section with all the voices more prominent she said "It needs monks!"

My wife makes helpful suggestions from time to time...well, they're meant to be helpful anyway.
On Z Cars she told me to dum the organ solo - it's the best bit.
On Plink Piano she told me to stick with just piano.
Then again she didn't like the bands I was in so I don't have a nagging back cat. to worry about.

[JD01]

OK... finally getting around to listening to Mix 2 this morning.
If you're going to go with a bassline like this it had better sound good! Its a bit too loud is resonating across the bottom of the mix in a pretty unpleasant way - its really blending with your toms in an awkward way. You might get away with just turning it down, but my hunch is that you need to EQ sculpt it a bit too. Try listening on different systems/headphones to get a handle on what's going on.

The change of note sounds cool and it is good that you only do it once, maybe you could build up to it more and emphasise it harder, at the moment, the song seems to stay pretty much the same, but the bass note changes which grabs your attention. Maybe plonk an extra bar of instrumental in after the word Palimpsest and before "...pure...". If there was ever a time for you to play some overdriven power chords its on those extra notes at the end.

Vocals are great.
I like your drum programming on this, its pretty fucking jazzy, but it also sounds pretty natural and there's plenty of groove in the fills compared to some of your earlier stuff. One of your songs I listen to quite regularly is Stalking Horse and the snare rolls on that sound a bit type-writery in comparisons.

[Armistice]

OK... finally getting around to listening to Mix 2 this morning.
If you're going to go with a bassline like this it had better sound good! Its a bit too loud is resonating across the bottom of the mix in a pretty unpleasant way - its really blending with your toms in an awkward way. You might get away with just turning it down, but my hunch is that you need to EQ sculpt it a bit too. Try listening on different systems/headphones to get a handle on what's going on.

The change of note sounds cool and it is good that you only do it once, maybe you could build up to it more and emphasise it harder, at the moment, the song seems to stay pretty much the same, but the bass note changes which grabs your attention. Maybe plonk an extra bar of instrumental in after the word Palimpsest and before "...pure...". If there was ever a time for you to play some overdriven power chords its on those extra notes at the end.

Vocals are great.
I like your drum programming on this, its pretty fucking jazzy, but it also sounds pretty natural and there's plenty of groove in the fills compared to some of your earlier stuff. One of your songs I listen to quite regularly is Stalking Horse and the snare rolls on that sound a bit type-writery in comparisons.

Cheers. I'll have a listen to the bass. I haven't A/B'd levels against other recordings at this point but will do so - suspected it was a bit loud though. Been dialling it up and down again trying to work it out.

And I was considering some more guitar in precisely that spot, but was undecided... Will perhaps give it a go, but won't get to it for a few days, unless the rain continues and my cricketing plans are dashed...

[Bubba]

All good, to me - although I haven't had it on the big monitors. I'll assume that JD is correct about the booming bass. If it does it on his, it will definitely do it on the HS8s! As I said when I messaged you, I wish you hadn't mentioned the one-note bassline, because now you've pointed it out, it kind of bugs me ever so slightly.

[vomitHatSteve]

See, I hadn't really noticed the bass and drums until JD pointed them out.

I can see what he's saying about the bass. With the repetition, I might try to smooth it out until there's almost no attack at all.
The drums feel a little wide for me. That low tom on the far right especially sounds like I'm sitting on the drum throne and staring unblinkingly at the snare.

I like the choral vox. Especially the main low aaahs. Those hit a cool register for this mix.

This is all mix 2 by the way.

I know the word palimpsest mostly from Dimension 20. fantasy nerds love pulling out esoteric language.

[Armistice]

See, I hadn't really noticed the bass and drums until JD pointed them out.

I can see what he's saying about the bass. With the repetition, I might try to smooth it out until there's almost no attack at all.
The drums feel a little wide for me. That low tom on the far right especially sounds like I'm sitting on the drum throne and staring unblinkingly at the snare.

I like the choral vox. Especially the main low aaahs. Those hit a cool register for this mix.

This is all mix 2 by the way.

I know the word palimpsest mostly from Dimension 20. fantasy nerds love pulling out esoteric language.

The toms are yet another thing I should have trusted my instincts on. I made them wider than normal. Possibly because I moved my monitors closer together and so I'm now listening across a smaller width than previously. I might put them back where they normally sit. As mentioned will have a look at the bass when I get the chance - although that could be today as it's raining again and I suspect that Day 2 of the much vaunted cricketing carnival will also be a washout!

Cheers

[Armistice]

it kind of bugs me ever so slightly.

It's sort of meant to...

Cheers for the ears...

[Armistice]

New mix up - #3 - details in the original post.

[Bubba]

Hi Armi

Mix 3 sounds great, but I'm going to say what I usually say. You've over-egged the drums. And not by a little, by a lot. This is just my opinion, of course - and you obviously have your reasons for wanting the drums to be busy on all your songs - but if I was rehearsing with a drummer and he was playing like that, I'd tell him to rein it in. Too distracting by half and that's a shame because it's otherwise a really good song.

[JD01]

Sounds better, but I still think the bass is a little loud

[Armistice]

Hi Armi

Mix 3 sounds great, but I'm going to say what I usually say. You've over-egged the drums. And not by a little, by a lot. This is just my opinion, of course - and you obviously have your reasons for wanting the drums to be busy on all your songs - but if I was rehearsing with a drummer and he was playing like that, I'd tell him to rein it in. Too distracting by half and that's a shame because it's otherwise a really good song.

Thanks

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the drums Bubba.

I don't think it's particularly complex and I think you focus on it too much because you have a drummer in the family and because it's in your nature for everything to be just so. Hence the note perfect copies of Stranglers songs. That's what you do. This is what I do.

I mean, I can have 7 guitars and 26 voices in a track, as I do here, and no-one worries about that, but the drumming is overdone? Everything is overdone, really. So what?

I thought the drumming on this is pretty basic, actually - goes a little nutso at the end but it's, as far as I know, all possible with 4 limbs - if it's not, it's accidental rather than policy. Whenever I'm at a live gig, I watch and listen to the drummer, closely, and most of the gigs I go to have drummers who have way more going on than kick snare kick snare hat hat hat tish... and they're not necessarily playing complex music - just rock and pop songs. I don't think I come close to the nuance I see and hear from real drummers. I wish I could. And I'm not a real drummer, so I don't know what real drummers do, apart from what I hear and observe, so the concept of "overegging" doesn't work as a criticism as I don't really know exactly which part of it is problematic for you. It lacks definition.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

[Armistice]

Sounds better, but I still think the bass is a little loud

Could be - I've really got to listen to it on non-recording systems, which, when I'm putting an album together, I'll do - but for now I'll note it and do the finer rebalancing later on. I really need bigger monitors I think - bass is always an issue for me.

Cheers

[Bubba]

Hi Armi

Mix 3 sounds great, but I'm going to say what I usually say. You've over-egged the drums. And not by a little, by a lot. This is just my opinion, of course - and you obviously have your reasons for wanting the drums to be busy on all your songs - but if I was rehearsing with a drummer and he was playing like that, I'd tell him to rein it in. Too distracting by half and that's a shame because it's otherwise a really good song.

Thanks

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the drums Bubba.

I don't think it's particularly complex and I think you focus on it too much because you have a drummer in the family and because it's in your nature for everything to be just so. Hence the note perfect copies of Stranglers songs. That's what you do. This is what I do.

I mean, I can have 7 guitars and 26 voices in a track, as I do here, and no-one worries about that, but the drumming is overdone? Everything is overdone, really. So what?

I thought the drumming on this is pretty basic, actually - goes a little nutso at the end but it's, as far as I know, all possible with 4 limbs - if it's not, it's accidental rather than policy. Whenever I'm at a live gig, I watch and listen to the drummer, closely, and most of the gigs I go to have drummers who have way more going on than kick snare kick snare hat hat hat tish... and they're not necessarily playing complex music - just rock and pop songs. I don't think I come close to the nuance I see and hear from real drummers. I wish I could. And I'm not a real drummer, so I don't know what real drummers do, apart from what I hear and observe, so the concept of "overegging" doesn't work as a criticism as I don't really know exactly which part of it is problematic for you. It lacks definition.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

Ah, now it sounds like I've upset you, which I never meant to do. I've invested quite a lot of time over the years, trying to give you good feedback on your songs, because I really think they're worth the effort. You're far more creative and prolific with your originals than I ever could be. I don't work well alone, so without collaboration I mostly just end up playing with my gear, doing covers and trying to get a good result. I'm sorry if I've pissed you off.

[JD01]

Sounds better, but I still think the bass is a little loud

Could be - I've really got to listen to it on non-recording systems, which, when I'm putting an album together, I'll do - but for now I'll note it and do the finer rebalancing later on. I really need bigger monitors I think - bass is always an issue for me.

Cheers

You're probably only just getting attuned to your new recording space too. Its late there, time for a glass of wine and stick the Royal Scam on loud.

[vomitHatSteve]

I can have 7 guitars and 26 voices in a track

Wait... you can't do all those parts at once live?! I feel so betrayed!

Unfortunately, my ear has become clogged with wax, so I can't give any meaningful feedback on mix 3+ for a few days.