New Honey Hunters - Palimpsest

[Armistice]

I can have 7 guitars and 26 voices in a track

Wait... you can't do all those parts at once live?! I feel so betrayed!

Always an interesting conversation when people learn I do music in general conversation - I tend to try to steer it away but sooner or later it comes out - "Do you play anywhere/ do you play in a band?" is usually the first question. Not really, it's too much trouble getting another four guitarists, keyboard player, bass, drums and a choir to back me...

And now I've added tubular bells, I'll be needing a percussionist to join the ensemble as well. Simples...

[Bubba]

Can I just say before I start that, this, to me, is easily one of your best songs?

It's bloody excellent.

I just listened to mix #3 again. I have to disagree with JD about the volume of the bass guitar, I think it's a little too low, in fact. Likewise, the kick is too quiet. If you could try increasing the volume of those two together, I think it would give the track a better weight.

I think that the booming, unruly bass frequencies that JD is on about are coming from the toms, and that's because they are really too loud, especially in the spacey bits. I'm thinking now that it's not the actual programming that is jarring with me, it's that the toms and snare are really too loud and unsubtle, mostly in the laid-back parts but also generally. The pre-chorus and chorus parts, where the snare takes on a more driving rhythm, are great but the volume of the toms is still a bit loud.

I don't know if you're familiar with the song "Atmosphere" by Joy Division? The tom work in that song is phenomenal; it's busy, rhythmic, but also very subtly played. It might be a good reference. I'm not saying "program it like that", just that pulling back the general volume of the toms and snare, particularly in the floaty bits could be a good move.

[Armistice]

Can I just say before I start that, this, to me, is easily one of your best songs?

It's bloody excellent.

I just listened to mix #3 again. I have to disagree with JD about the volume of the bass guitar, I think it's a little too low, in fact. Likewise, the kick is too quiet. If you could try increasing the volume of those two together, I think it would give the track a better weight.

I think that the booming, unruly bass frequencies that JD is on about are coming from the toms, and that's because they are really too loud, especially in the spacey bits. I'm thinking now that it's not the actual programming that is jarring with me, it's that the toms and snare are really too loud and unsubtle, mostly in the laid-back parts but also generally. The pre-chorus and chorus parts, where the snare takes on a more driving rhythm, are great but the volume of the toms is still a bit loud.

I don't know if you're familiar with the song "Atmosphere" by Joy Division? The tom work in that song is phenomenal; it's busy, rhythmic, but also very subtly played. It might be a good reference. I'm not saying "program it like that", just that pulling back the general volume of the toms and snare, particularly in the floaty bits could be a good move.

Thanks Bubba. Interesting outcome for a base track I didn't really know what to do with and which was thus rejected on the last album. I figure this has "final track on the next album" written all over it.

I've made various adjustments, detailed in the original post.



My favourite part is the big ending, obviously, but in particular the last thing I sang, which is only playing with any real audibility in the final two repetitions of "pure and white and clear and unpossessed" - it's the ascending harmony line that starts under the main vocal and ends up over the top of it. I was struggling to get a really good high harmony, it's just too high for me - I can hit the notes, just, but not hang onto them for a whole line, and so I thought, why don't I do the old Jongleurs trick (because I could really never often get over R's higher register) and start underneath and then hit the high bits at the end. You don't want to hear it solo'd, but it works pretty well in the mix, I reckon.

[Bubba]

Thanks Bubba. Interesting outcome for a base track I didn't really know what to do with and which was thus rejected on the last album. I figure this has "final track on the next album" written all over it.

I've made various adjustments, detailed in the original post.



My favourite part is the big ending, obviously, but in particular the last thing I sang, which is only playing with any real audibility in the final two repetitions of "pure and white and clear and unpossessed" - it's the ascending harmony line that starts under the main vocal and ends up over the top of it. I was struggling to get a really good high harmony, it's just too high for me - I can hit the notes, just, but not hang onto them for a whole line, and so I thought, why don't I do the old Jongleurs trick (because I could really never often get over R's higher register) and start underneath and then hit the high bits at the end. You don't want to hear it solo'd, but it works pretty well in the mix, I reckon.

Of course I'm going to say this, but mix 4 is 100% better. Without a doubt. For me, tom 3(?) hard right, is still a tad loud. The bits where the drums fall into a straight 4/4 driving rhythm are far clearer, you can hear the words better and it has a nice crescendo vibe. I think perhaps the snare could be just a bit louder in those parts, to go with the driving feel. It's one of your best, by far.

[JD01]

Yeah, Bubba's right. Mix 4 is much better.

Quick suggestion for the ending - you've got 8 bars (well, might be 4 of your halftime bars on your timeline) - the final chorus if you like, the 2nd half of which is when you change the bass note. Try 8 bars of straight 4/4 here without all of the jazzy flourishing will probably give the whole end section more impact.

[vomitHatSteve]

Wait... you can't do all those parts at once live?! I feel so betrayed!

Always an interesting conversation when people learn I do music in general conversation - I tend to try to steer it away but sooner or later it comes out - "Do you play anywhere/ do you play in a band?" is usually the first question. Not really, it's too much trouble getting another four guitarists, keyboard player, bass, drums and a choir to back me...

And now I've added tubular bells, I'll be needing a percussionist to join the ensemble as well. Simples...

The Honey Hunters Orchestra would be a good name for a band.

[rayc]

New mix good.

[Armistice]

Keep forgetting I have to add another post saying "new mix in the original post"... hopefully the last...

[WhiskeyJack]

I have to work A little bit this weekend and it my intent to get caught up on the listening booth.

[Bubba]

I'm very relieved that I cannot detect any of the bass shenanigans that you describe.

[rayc]

"Copied the bass track and super compressed it and added a little distortion and then fed it back in at a low level to try to give the bass a little more bite."
That's a decent method. You can do those things on a sep track that receives a send from the original and is fed back wherever you bus the bass to. The advantage of this is that any editing required to the original doesn't need duplicating with the distorted one. Another useful tool is the band splitter in Reaper. This means you can select the freq you want to add FX too rather than making the bottom end distorted etc.
I like what you've done in mix 5...the tubular bells are cool and sit really well.

[JD01]

Listened a few times properly this morning.
Like what you've done with the drums at the end - fairly straight beat for you!
Don't like what you've done with the bass, feels too loud and resonant again now!

[Armistice]

Listened a few times properly this morning.
Like what you've done with the drums at the end - fairly straight beat for you!
Don't like what you've done with the bass, feels too loud and resonant again now!

There should be less bass in Mix 5 than Mix 4. Doesn't matter anyway, I've moved onto Mix 6 and I know it won't be there.

Cheers

[vomitHatSteve]

Jumping from 2 to 5. I don't know that I'm hearing much improvement. It's a little clearer overall, but the drums are still distractingly-wide (this is why I had to wait to get my earwax cleared to listen! ), and I still vote that I'd like less bite on the bass.

[Armistice]

Jumping from 2 to 5. I don't know that I'm hearing much improvement. It's a little clearer overall, but the drums are still distractingly-wide (this is why I had to wait to get my earwax cleared to listen! ), and I still vote that I'd like less bite on the bass.

I've really pulled them in even further on #6, which I'm not going to post... it was weird - I heard it myself and checked the panning and it really wasn't THAT far wide, but jeez it sounded it, so I'm pretty sure I have the floor tom no more than 25% R now.

There is also the question on whether one should accept mix advice from someone who doesn't know the difference between Whitney Houston and Tina Turner.

Cheers

[JD01]

Jumping from 2 to 5. I don't know that I'm hearing much improvement. It's a little clearer overall, but the drums are still distractingly-wide (this is why I had to wait to get my earwax cleared to listen! ), and I still vote that I'd like less bite on the bass.

I've really pulled them in even further on #6, which I'm not going to post... it was weird - I heard it myself and checked the panning and it really wasn't THAT far wide, but jeez it sounded it, so I'm pretty sure I have the floor tom no more than 25% R now.

There is also the question on whether one should accept mix advice from someone who doesn't know the difference between Whitney Houston and Tina Turner.

Cheers

You probably have loads of your toms coming from close mics and not enough in your room mics. This normally makes them sound too wide.

[Armistice]

I've really pulled them in even further on #6, which I'm not going to post... it was weird - I heard it myself and checked the panning and it really wasn't THAT far wide, but jeez it sounded it, so I'm pretty sure I have the floor tom no more than 25% R now.

There is also the question on whether one should accept mix advice from someone who doesn't know the difference between Whitney Houston and Tina Turner.

Cheers

You probably have loads of your toms coming from close mics and not enough in your room mics. This normally makes them sound too wide.

Yeah, I was just looking at that actually - the relationship between the VST level kit panning and the individual track panning is still somewhat of a mystery. I don't have room mics on at all, but obviously have overheads, so I'll check the overheads and see what that's doing to it. Shouldn't be hard to figure out - never been that much of an issue before, perhaps just by luck. I have the direct mics quite close in but not entirely sure how that's coming out as it is. I probably need to just listen to the drums solo'd in headphones to work it out.

I'm sort of more concerned with a harshness on certain syllables on the lead vocal that I'm struggling to tame... might have to go back and revisit some of the takes to see if I can find better ones. It never ends...

[Bubba]

Stick a fork in it before it's ruined. There's nothing wrong with wide drums in a recording, it's not a live gig. You have stereo earholes, give them a treat.

[vomitHatSteve]

Stick a fork in it before it's ruined. There's nothing wrong with wide drums in a recording, it's not a live gig. You have stereo earholes, give them a treat.

Earholes can have a little stereo, as a treat.

[JD01]

Stick a fork in it before it's ruined. There's nothing wrong with wide drums in a recording, it's not a live gig. You have stereo earholes, give them a treat.

FFS, Bubba! This is a home recording, its not finished until its 6 mixes past its best. He's still has to add the Hammond organ, synth/strings and glockenspiel solo yet.