Real mid-side recording

[Greg_L]

I see, that's making sense now.
My R0DE is just Cardioid as are my C1000S mics. So if I did what I was suggesting I'd just be going for stereo room mics. Still could be interesting to use 3 mics to capture one source and get a sense of space.

There's many stereo miking methods with two matched cardioid mics. Spaced pair is easy. XY and ORTF require a little more care but are probably more realistic.

[JD01]

I see, that's making sense now.
My R0DE is just Cardioid as are my C1000S mics. So if I did what I was suggesting I'd just be going for stereo room mics. Still could be interesting to use 3 mics to capture one source and get a sense of space.

There's many stereo miking methods with two matched cardioid mics. Spaced pair is easy. XY and ORTF require a little more care but are probably more realistic.

I've used spaced pairs and XY loads for recording podcasts. Never for guitar. No idea what ORTF is... sounds uncomfortable.

EDIT: Ah, I've used ORTF for podcasts too.

[Greg_L]

I don't know why you'd need to stereo mic for podcasts, but okay. So just do the same shit but in a room with a guitar.


And then realize that it all sounds like ass and go back to mono recording the way it should be.

[Lt. Bob]

so if the one mic is basically to capture the room, how is this much different than simply sticking a mic to capture the room somewhere else in the room?

Because that's one mic capturing one spot in one room. That's not stereo.

A Figure-8 is one mic that captures way more. The mid mic gets the straight on signal, the side mic catches the sides with the straight on signal in the null. The Figure-8 mic is the key to the whole thing. Without the Figure-8...or a very reasonable facsimile...then MS does not work.

To really boost the whole shebang some people like an omni mic as the mid mic

no, I'd use a stereo mic for the room .... but I guess the point is to make the guitar sound stereo

[Greg_L]

no, I'd use a stereo mic for the room .... but I guess the point is to make the guitar sound stereo

The point is to add stereo (side) to the mono (mid) image. They need to come from the same spot to make it seem real. Putting a stereo mic out in a room is fine, but it's not Mid-Side. It goes back to a previous discussion about where do you wanna put the listener? With mid-side it's supposed to be like someone sitting in front of you. They'll hear you direct but there will also be information coming in from the sides because that's how we hear things. And it's also why mid-side doesn't really work with huge ensembles like an orchestra or a choir. The mid will overpower the side on something very large like that.

[vomitHatSteve]

I was watching some more demos on this yesterday. Apparently, the big reason for pioneering the technique was mono-compatibility.

The big advantage of MS over other stereo recording techniques is that it sums to mono easily. Since your figure 8 mic is out-of-phase with itself in opposite channels, an (unmastered) MS recording will simply cancel out the sides when played back in mono.
So it may or may not sound as good as other stereo micing techniques (and as LA Steve rightly points out is needlessly complex), but it did allow early stereo recordings to sound better on the mono devices they would usually be played on.

So really, we need to figure out the modern equivalent that allows a recording to sound good on both our studio monitors and a phone in a plastic cup!

[Greg_L]

Really there's no need to do any of this in the home recording realm. It's all just entertainment and/or gear masturbation. Very few of us have good spaces or the need for stereo recording.

I remember miro used to insist on using MS for drum recordings, and the obvious biased digs at that stupid old bastard aside, his drum recordings sounded like shit. They just did. As a drummer and a drum recorder, I can say with 100% confidence that his drum tracks were shit. Maybe it was a great technique in the 60s or whatever but we can do better now. But you know, Jimmy Page or some dipshit Beatle probably loved MS recording so people still think about it like the lemmings they are. It's cool to know about it, it's cool to try it for the experience, and it's also cool to admit that it's just not that good.

[JD01]

I don't know why you'd need to stereo mic for podcasts, but okay. So just do the same shit but in a room with a guitar.


And then realize that it all sounds like ass and go back to mono recording the way it should be.

It's handy when you're recording a group together. Makes it much easier to listen to a conversation in stereo if people don't take turns to a script.

[vomitHatSteve]

I don't know why you'd need to stereo mic for podcasts, but okay. So just do the same shit but in a room with a guitar.


And then realize that it all sounds like ass and go back to mono recording the way it should be.

It's handy when you're recording a group together. Makes it much easier to listen to a conversation in stereo if people don't take turns to a script.

Why not just multi-track it so everyone has their own mic?

[Armistice]

I have a figure 8 and have about zero interest in doing this as I just don't have a room that would add anything. I'll stick to two cardioids - one at the sweet spot and one somewhere else, depending upon what sound I'm trying to get. Way easier to get a sense of space that way, given the room constraint.

Not that I've actually recorded acoustic guitar for the best part of a decade...

[rayc]

I recorded an acoustic a month ago. 57 aimed at the 12th fret from about 30cm away. Sounded fine to my cloth ears. I doubt any sort of spacial elements are necessary aside from panning.
I could be wrong - but just not know it.

parkattack1204.mp3

[JD01]

It's handy when you're recording a group together. Makes it much easier to listen to a conversation in stereo if people don't take turns to a script.

Why not just multi-track it so everyone has their own mic?

That assumes that all the contributors know which end of a mic to talk into and that we have enough mics.
We could probably get enough mics together, although I don't particularly want my NT1 being dragged around various surf clubs and surfboard factories etc.

In reality it's more about portability. We just turn up somewhere with a laptop, 2i2 and a couple of decent condensers.

[musicturtle]

Sounds like something that would suit Tony @musicturtle ...
Can you have a crack at Dr. Graffin's solo acoustic version of Sorrow?

It is a good sound, but alas I do not have a figure 8 mic and I only have two inputs on my interface.

I did learn "Sorrow" a while back when you suggesed it, maybe I can get it laid down this summer or at least a video of it.

[rayc]

That acoustic Sorrow makes much more sense than the full band version. A folk song backed by a steam roller can work but, in this instance, the folk version is both the pudding & the eating.

[vomitHatSteve]

Why not just multi-track it so everyone has their own mic?

That assumes that all the contributors know which end of a mic to talk into and that we have enough mics.
We could probably get enough mics together, although I don't particularly want my NT1 being dragged around various surf clubs and surfboard factories etc.

In reality it's more about portability. We just turn up somewhere with a laptop, 2i2 and a couple of decent condensers.

Ah, yeah. On-site recording a simpler set of mics makes sense.

There's a rock podcast event here in Nashville every couple of years. It's mostly a rock memorabilia swap meet, but a bunch of people show up with portable mics to record episodes of their Kiss shows with the hosts of other Kiss shows. It's such a noisy room; I can't imagine many of them are getting good results at all.

[Greg_L]

Here's an example of real mid-side with an amp in a mix. I already had the bones of this song tracked, I just re-did the lead melody guitar part with mid-side miking. The reverb in the guitar track is my standalone reverb unit into the amp, the stereo image in the mix is purely mid-side mics. There is no reverb added in the mix.

Having An Average Weekend MS.mp3