Which mix is better?
Which mix is better?
FILES REMOVED. Thanks for playing...
Ok mix detectives...
Yesterday I had to go to Brisbane, normally a 90 minute drive, to destroy furniture at my mother's house with a small sledgehammer and throw it into a skip. She's moved into aged care and we have to sell her house and destroying some of the 50 year old crappy furniture was necessary as we can't even give it away.
So the 90 minute drive took 3 hours because of a fatal accident on the highway south of where I'd got to at the time. I spent a good hour going less than 200m. So I took the opportunity to listen to all 12 tracks of my upcoming album on the car stereo and compare them with whatever I had for music on the car player that I thought would have a similar production "aesthetic" (for want of a better word). Because I wasn't moving anywhere, I made notes in a notebook for each song.
My mixes came off badly, especially when I upped the volume, always a good indication - and while there were specific this and that things on a per song basis, there were general trends.
And here I was thinking I was almost there.
So this afternoon I've gone back in and remixed/remastered what will be the first song on the album. There was some re-shaping of the drum samples as well. Lots of quite small changes to address the perceived problems. Below are two versions - what I had yesterday, and what I've remixed today. I won't say which is which at this point.
Anyone with keen ears who wants to suggest that A is better than B or vice versa and their reasoning for such a choice, I'm all ears. It would be a great help. No need to necessarily listen to the entire song - although it's under three minutes. Feel free to dive in and out as you wish.
Before I go start playing with any more I want to see what the brains trust - ie. you lot - thinks.
Thanks in advance.
Ok mix detectives...
Yesterday I had to go to Brisbane, normally a 90 minute drive, to destroy furniture at my mother's house with a small sledgehammer and throw it into a skip. She's moved into aged care and we have to sell her house and destroying some of the 50 year old crappy furniture was necessary as we can't even give it away.
So the 90 minute drive took 3 hours because of a fatal accident on the highway south of where I'd got to at the time. I spent a good hour going less than 200m. So I took the opportunity to listen to all 12 tracks of my upcoming album on the car stereo and compare them with whatever I had for music on the car player that I thought would have a similar production "aesthetic" (for want of a better word). Because I wasn't moving anywhere, I made notes in a notebook for each song.
My mixes came off badly, especially when I upped the volume, always a good indication - and while there were specific this and that things on a per song basis, there were general trends.
And here I was thinking I was almost there.
So this afternoon I've gone back in and remixed/remastered what will be the first song on the album. There was some re-shaping of the drum samples as well. Lots of quite small changes to address the perceived problems. Below are two versions - what I had yesterday, and what I've remixed today. I won't say which is which at this point.
Anyone with keen ears who wants to suggest that A is better than B or vice versa and their reasoning for such a choice, I'm all ears. It would be a great help. No need to necessarily listen to the entire song - although it's under three minutes. Feel free to dive in and out as you wish.
Before I go start playing with any more I want to see what the brains trust - ie. you lot - thinks.
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Armistice on Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
- CrowsofFritz
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Re: Which mix is better?
Just finished my work and have like 3 hours before we go on air. Will listen with crappy station headphones in a couple minutes.
“Naaaaaaaaaah man. I ain’t touching that mic. That thing’s expensive!”
Re: Which mix is better?
Hmmm...the main difference I heard was that there's more bottom end or lower mids in B...particularly the bass so that, in comparison, the A mix sounded a little scooped.
Cheers
rayc
rayc
- CrowsofFritz
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Re: Which mix is better?
First mix sounds a bit thinner in my ears. But again, I’m listening on crappy $15 work headphones. I’ll give it another listen when I get off work, but I prefer B for now.
“Naaaaaaaaaah man. I ain’t touching that mic. That thing’s expensive!”
Re: Which mix is better?
I can barely hear the bass at all in mix A, so B is the clear winner for me. I'd be fine with a dB or two more of the bass than that even. But in mix B at least the bass isn't being given the And Justice For All treatment.
Re: Which mix is better?
Thanks guys - interesting... I'm trying to work out how badly my car speakers are lying to me about bass. I haven't listened to the second mix in the car yet, but will in the morning. Then I'll try them both on the home stereo
I didn't change the EQ or volume on the bass guitar - I did change the compressor release to keep it on longer because of the long notes - so they tail off a little quicker. I reshaped the tom tom envelopes to keep the ringing down a bit - so they're shorter in duration as well. Between those two things it really booms in your ears in my car at volume - but a car stereo is usually going to have a hyped bass response - you quickly go reaching to turn the bass down, which for other non-me stuff that I'm listening to, you don't have to. That tells me there's some sort of bass issue at least.
Because my monitors have 7.1 inch woofers, bass is not the easiest to judge, especially in an untreated room.
Interestingly I did a whole heap of other things various to many other tracks in that mix, but so far all comment is on bass response.
I shall consider my next steps tomorrow so I can get one track - this one - as a reference for the others, and go from there. Perhaps the bass guitar can now come up a tad now that the tom toms are somewhat curtailed...
I'm struggling to find useful reference tracks in my CD collection though.
Cheers
I didn't change the EQ or volume on the bass guitar - I did change the compressor release to keep it on longer because of the long notes - so they tail off a little quicker. I reshaped the tom tom envelopes to keep the ringing down a bit - so they're shorter in duration as well. Between those two things it really booms in your ears in my car at volume - but a car stereo is usually going to have a hyped bass response - you quickly go reaching to turn the bass down, which for other non-me stuff that I'm listening to, you don't have to. That tells me there's some sort of bass issue at least.
Because my monitors have 7.1 inch woofers, bass is not the easiest to judge, especially in an untreated room.
Interestingly I did a whole heap of other things various to many other tracks in that mix, but so far all comment is on bass response.
I shall consider my next steps tomorrow so I can get one track - this one - as a reference for the others, and go from there. Perhaps the bass guitar can now come up a tad now that the tom toms are somewhat curtailed...
I'm struggling to find useful reference tracks in my CD collection though.
Cheers
- CrowsofFritz
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Re: Which mix is better?
Are the vocal takes different for each recording?
“Naaaaaaaaaah man. I ain’t touching that mic. That thing’s expensive!”
Re: Which mix is better?
No. Same. Might have HPF'd a bit higher and changed the high EQ a bit. Touch more reverb. Touch more volume.
Re: Which mix is better?
B is better. Bass and fullness.
One issue I'm hearing in both mixes is in the vocals. Your consonants sound cut off. Too much de-essing maybe? Too much fear of plosives? There's a line...curious kisses? Furious kisses? Curious soul? I can't tell. Is it furious or curious? It's not clear. The vocal treatment has made your consonants murky and muffly.
One issue I'm hearing in both mixes is in the vocals. Your consonants sound cut off. Too much de-essing maybe? Too much fear of plosives? There's a line...curious kisses? Furious kisses? Curious soul? I can't tell. Is it furious or curious? It's not clear. The vocal treatment has made your consonants murky and muffly.
Rebel Yell
- vomitHatSteve
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Re: Which mix is better?
+1 on B having more bass frequencies and kinda preferring that
Re: Which mix is better?
"curious kitten"Greg_L wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:15 am B is better. Bass and fullness.
One issue I'm hearing in both mixes is in the vocals. Your consonants sound cut off. Too much de-essing maybe? Too much fear of plosives? There's a line...curious kisses? Furious kisses? Curious soul? I can't tell. Is it furious or curious? It's not clear. The vocal treatment has made your consonants murky and muffly.
I'll check the vocals. I've probably gone too hard on the de-essing and whatever the harsh sounds are called ... fricatives?
It's actually very useful feedback given our brain's tendency to fill in gaps without the owner of the brain realising it. It's clear to me, but then I know what it is - but I did also notice that GF didn't hear that properly either... which I ignored at the time - but I'll go back and adjust some stuff.
Think I have the answer to the bass overkill on my car speakers as well now but will have to test.
Cheers
Re: Which mix is better?
Yeah, Mix B is much better - give me a shout if you want me to try this "AI mastering" on any of your mixes. As much as I hate to admit it, the best masters I can get is when I try to replicate what its doing so just pressing the AI button seems to be my best bet!
Re: Which mix is better?
Interesting. I'm finding all my original "final" mixes too boomy at volume in the real world situation of my car - and I know that it will have a hyped low end, but commercial recordings at the same volume don't boom the same way. I'll finish a rebalancing process on them tomorrow, then I'll take them to the lounge room stereo and see what that's like - hopefully OK and not too much further adjustment. I'm doing a lot of minor mix adjusting too - snares seem to have gotten dull and low, generally, along the way. And the mixes are generally a bit dark, so I'm giving them some Mr Sheen treatment.JD01 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:50 am Yeah, Mix B is much better - give me a shout if you want me to try this "AI mastering" on any of your mixes. As much as I hate to admit it, the best masters I can get is when I try to replicate what its doing so just pressing the AI button seems to be my best bet!
I cut too much out with A but B was just too much. I prefer B on my monitors too, but I'm not getting good translation onto actual music playing devices at the moment. Other thing I tried was the Sonos Roam I have - and it's actually a really good speaker for a bluetooth jobby - and it wasn't handling the low end either at party volume - low volume it's all good, but when you crank it up, not so.
So much faffing around - I can see why people get their mastering done for them. A lot of work for something no-one will hear... Oh well, it keeps me busy.
Thanks for the offer, but I'll be needing 3 separate masters - streaming, CD (I'll get Kunaki to print me 2 dozen for posterity) and 24 bit download level for BandCamp, and I don't think your AI one would fit in with these.
Re: Which mix is better?
I've had a lot of problems with "Boomy" and I ended up always ending up with thin mixes trying to deal with the boominess.Armistice wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:05 amInteresting. I'm finding all my original "final" mixes too boomy at volume in the real world situation of my car - and I know that it will have a hyped low end, but commercial recordings at the same volume don't boom the same way. I'll finish a rebalancing process on them tomorrow, then I'll take them to the lounge room stereo and see what that's like - hopefully OK and not too much further adjustment. I'm doing a lot of minor mix adjusting too - snares seem to have gotten dull and low, generally, along the way. And the mixes are generally a bit dark, so I'm giving them some Mr Sheen treatment.JD01 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:50 am Yeah, Mix B is much better - give me a shout if you want me to try this "AI mastering" on any of your mixes. As much as I hate to admit it, the best masters I can get is when I try to replicate what its doing so just pressing the AI button seems to be my best bet!
I cut too much out with A but B was just too much. I prefer B on my monitors too, but I'm not getting good translation onto actual music playing devices at the moment. Other thing I tried was the Sonos Roam I have - and it's actually a really good speaker for a bluetooth jobby - and it wasn't handling the low end either at party volume - low volume it's all good, but when you crank it up, not so.
So much faffing around - I can see why people get their mastering done for them. A lot of work for something no-one will hear... Oh well, it keeps me busy.
Thanks for the offer, but I'll be needing 3 separate masters - streaming, CD (I'll get Kunaki to print me 2 dozen for posterity) and 24 bit download level for BandCamp, and I don't think your AI one would fit in with these.
The real problem was the interaction of the kick and bass. When I got this sorted I could get more low end into my mixes without the boominess.
Re: Which mix is better?
Yeah, that's exactly what it is - I've been carefully playing the EQ on both, as well as clearing other things out of the sonic space - taking me ages as I don't want to make big adjustments and then discover I've gone too far, but I think I'm there with 2/3rds of the songs, just have to get the other 4 done - then the hi fi test and we'll see where that ends up.JD01 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:27 amI've had a lot of problems with "Boomy" and I ended up always ending up with thin mixes trying to deal with the boominess.Armistice wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:05 am
Interesting. I'm finding all my original "final" mixes too boomy at volume in the real world situation of my car - and I know that it will have a hyped low end, but commercial recordings at the same volume don't boom the same way. I'll finish a rebalancing process on them tomorrow, then I'll take them to the lounge room stereo and see what that's like - hopefully OK and not too much further adjustment. I'm doing a lot of minor mix adjusting too - snares seem to have gotten dull and low, generally, along the way. And the mixes are generally a bit dark, so I'm giving them some Mr Sheen treatment.
I cut too much out with A but B was just too much. I prefer B on my monitors too, but I'm not getting good translation onto actual music playing devices at the moment. Other thing I tried was the Sonos Roam I have - and it's actually a really good speaker for a bluetooth jobby - and it wasn't handling the low end either at party volume - low volume it's all good, but when you crank it up, not so.
So much faffing around - I can see why people get their mastering done for them. A lot of work for something no-one will hear... Oh well, it keeps me busy.
Thanks for the offer, but I'll be needing 3 separate masters - streaming, CD (I'll get Kunaki to print me 2 dozen for posterity) and 24 bit download level for BandCamp, and I don't think your AI one would fit in with these.
The real problem was the interaction of the kick and bass. When I got this sorted I could get more low end into my mixes without the boominess.
The actual bass level in this song has ended up higher than in either of these mixes - as I mentioned, the level never changed between them, just the EQ and compression - but it's more defined and less boomy. It's a particularly hard one because of the long notes from the start.
I'm really over all these songs now...
Re: Which mix is better?
I think the bass guitar is too wimpy in mix A. I think it's just about perfect in mix B.
The "main" guitar - the one that's not quite breaking up - sounds more brittle in mix A. At least in the pre-chorus. Its high midrange sounds better tamed in mix B. The vocal comes through better in B.
The "main" guitar - the one that's not quite breaking up - sounds more brittle in mix A. At least in the pre-chorus. Its high midrange sounds better tamed in mix B. The vocal comes through better in B.
Re: Which mix is better?
Yeah, it was. Problem is I'm already up to Remix F on that song...TripleM wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:22 pm I think the bass guitar is too wimpy in mix A. I think it's just about perfect in mix B.
The "main" guitar - the one that's not quite breaking up - sounds more brittle in mix A. At least in the pre-chorus. Its high midrange sounds better tamed in mix B. The vocal comes through better in B.
Thanks
- WhiskeyJack
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Re: Which mix is better?
I guess i have to wait for Mix J.
Re: Which mix is better?
You'll have to wait for the album...
Seriously, I'm very close - just had an early morning listen to the whole album at reasonable volume via the hi fi and have made a handful of notes about turning this or that up by small amounts but nothing major.
And GF was bouncing around the house to the last song - Rockets - making up her own nonsense lyrics up as she went, so that's a good thing. She's still stuck in the Jongleurs era, somewhat...
You'll like the cover, I suspect, given as it features one of your favourite things.
- WhiskeyJack
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