Mass Intonation Event

[rayc]

I've been trying to record a simple arpeggio for a track and it's been driving me nuts...the intonation was out on my go to guitar.
I tried another guitar, same problem, ended up SIX guitars had intonation issues that gave rise to some strings being out by as much as a quarter tone by the 6th fret and a semi by the 12th.
BLOODY NORA.
Clearly it didn't help that my tuner was set to 438Khz so I could hear a slight problem across the guitar against the already recorded bass etc.
I've spent a bunch of time with two tuners and a screwdriver to get my Squire "close enough for rock n roll" and will find out if close enough is good enough. I rarely venture beyond the 6th fret so it could be a cumulative problem I've not encountered due to lack of dexterity up the fret board.

Setting intonation BIG Problem #1...remembering which way to turn for longer or shorter.
& #2 fixed intonation or limited intonation bridges.

P.S. it's insane that I can now, and despite tinnitus, hear these things.

[Armistice]

Ha ha - I always have to really think about whether I should be shortening or lengthening the string via the bridge saddle when I'm intoning... because I do it so infrequently, I just always forget from last time.

There must be some mnemonic for it.

Guitar maintenance - my least favourite task. Good luck!

[rayc]

Problem #3...pick up magnet pulls the screw driver away from it's allotted slot!
The Squire was easy enough...the G hasn't enough travel in the saddle to get it 100% but it'll do.
The Sheraton II was a double: combo of intonation and bridge height...that took me even further out of my comfort zone but It's pretty close now. It weighs just under 5Kg: a heavy plank with hollow wings.
I can't do any more upstairs at the dining table, (right height & light), as Kim's gone for a nap & as she has near PPitch a guitar being tuned and detuned near her and then incorrectly tuned played will keep her awake. Alas the "music/studio" space is directly underneath her so I can't do any more there. Time for me to sit quietly for a couple of hours. BOOK time.

[rayc]

There must be some mnemonic for it.

The screws are on the pick up side of the Sheraton & the tail piece/stop bar side of the Squire so the mnemonic would have to be swingable for me.
The only thing I do manage to keep in mind is "longer for lower".

Luckily I have a cheap machine winder/tuner for the gross work and a decent clip on for the fine tuning.

[Tadpui]

Setting intonation is definitely one of my least favorite things, just because it's a little subjective. If you pluck the string a little harder, it'll sound a little sharp and then decay towards "neutral". And if you fret the note a little too hard or a little too close to the fret wire, it'll sound sharp. Those things registering on a tuner always drive me nuts. Like, is the intonation sharp or not?!?! People love to say "just use your ears" but apparently my ears aren't made for intonating a guitar. And a tuner is so sensitive that it gets tough for me to know how much deviation from 0 cents is acceptable, especially when it's constantly fluctuating. I think that your "close enough for rock n' roll" approach is perfect. Don't fuss over it, but get it pretty close.

As far as which way to turn, just remember that when you fret a note, you're essentially making the string length shorter, which sounds a higher pitch. So to change the pitch of an open string you'd want to shorten the length of the string to make it sharp, lengthen it to make it flat. So you'd want to tighten the adjustment screw to go sharper, loosen the screw to go flatter. I have to think my way through it too, every dang time.

Other factors to consider if you're finding certain spots going sharp are the action height, neck relief, and nut slot height. Too much bow in the neck means you have to press the string farther to fret a note around the middle of the neck, so those notes can sound a little sharp. And too high of action means you have to move the string farther to fret a note pretty much anywhere up and down the neck, so they'll all sound a little sharp. Or maybe if the nut slots are too high, you'll get sharp notes in the 1st position "cowboy chord" area.

From what you describe, my guess (and it is only a guess!) is that it's mainly the saddle adjustments since the intonation gets progressively worse as you ascend the neck. But it could be a combination of problems with the setup. You did just move a considerable distance recently, and those chunks of breathing wood react to changes in temperature and humidity.

I have no shame in handing over a guitar to a pro though. I'm not a fan of the cost, but sometimes I just have to walk into a shop with my guitar and hand it to the tech and ask like a toddler "can you make it ok again?"

[Greg_L]

The neck relief could very much add to the problem, or be the problem. Getting the neck relief correct with truss rod adjustments should be first, and then the rest is pretty easy.

[rayc]

I have no shame in handing over a guitar to a pro though. I'm not a fan of the cost, but sometimes I just have to walk into a shop with my guitar and hand it to the tech and ask like a toddler "can you make it ok again?"

All you wrote is accurate and the slightly sharp/flat fretting fluctuation is brain hurting stuff.
There's a considerable distance to the nearest tech and I'm in the process of checking those available in terms of reviews etc.
No rush though...I can survive with one guitar easily enough.

[rayc]

The neck relief could very much add to the problem, or be the problem. Getting the neck relief correct with truss rod adjustments should be first, and then the rest is pretty easy.

Yes, & I did consider that. Measurements, saddle and bridge adjustments have done okay thus far. I have trouble with neck relief though as, weirdly, I have a "serous" bubble in each retina which is generally not an issue but any straight line I look directly at appears bowed to my brain. I'll need a reliable straight edge to compare against to contemplate moving in that direction & even then, as you know, a "straight" neck with strings off isn't the desired outcome.

[Armistice]

I have no shame in handing over a guitar to a pro though. I'm not a fan of the cost, but sometimes I just have to walk into a shop with my guitar and hand it to the tech and ask like a toddler "can you make it ok again?"

All you wrote is accurate and the slightly sharp/flat fretting fluctuation is brain hurting stuff.
There's a considerable distance to the nearest tech and I'm in the process of checking those available in terms of reviews etc.
No rush though...I can survive with one guitar easily enough.

Probably Mooloolaba Music will have someone - it is though, as you say, a considerable distance away. Worth a trip to look at all the shiny new guitars though...

There was a beautiful sparkly pink Gretsch there last time I went. My guitar playing mate from out west is supposed to be dropping over next weekend and doubtless we'll go down there at some stage for a gander.

[Greg_L]

Yes, & I did consider that. Measurements, saddle and bridge adjustments have done okay thus far. I have trouble with neck relief though as, weirdly, I have a "serous" bubble in each retina which is generally not an issue but any straight line I look directly at appears bowed to my brain. I'll need a reliable straight edge to compare against to contemplate moving in that direction & even then, as you know, a "straight" neck with strings off isn't the desired outcome.

Well checking neck relief is done with strings on. And you use a capo and feeler gauges.

[Lt. Bob]

Gotta have fresh strings for setting intonation ..... that's a requirement if you didn't already know.

For neck relief you don't need a super accurate straight edge ...... don't you have a yard stick or meter stick? I can't imagine you don't.
That'll do it and it's narrow so there's no reason to do anything about the strings .... on edge it'll sit right between them.
Yes .... if you want super accuracy you use feeler gauges and a capo but I never do ...... a straight edge gets you close enough and personally I rarely do even that ...... I just sight down the neck ...... but I have a lot of experience with that ..... I just don't want buzzing so I don't tend to like a super straight neck.
It's pretty rare to run into a guitar with a badly bowed neck these days.

And neck relief is not for intonation adjustments .... it's about playing action and not having buzzes ........ small tweaks of the truss rod do nothing about intonation .... yes, you want to get the relief right but that's so you can play the thing .... if the relief is so far off that it makes intonation impossible then the guitar is unplayable because the strings are half an inch off the fretboard.
It would have to be a badly bowed neck to be a factor in intonation and I can't imagine you wouldn't have had that fixed already just so you could play the thing.
I read magazines talking about, "Oh I traveled across country and the intonation was off but a tweak to the trussrod got it right" ........ bull shit.
Yes there can be exceptions but for the most part once you have intonation set it stays that way and the truss rod isn't how you set intonation anyways .... you set neck relief for playing action and no buzzing ..... that's what relief is about.

And then you set intonation ..... if you have the guitar where it plays great and the relief allows that ..... then you do NOT change relief for intonation purposes.
Out of hundreds of guitars I've bought, virtually all of them come with relief set close enough that it's not a factor in intonation.
Pretty much every guitar you own should have had that checked the moment you got the guitar and if you don't care about the action being unplayable past the 6th fret cause you don't play higher than that, shame on you.

As for the fretting thing .... just think of fretting as doing a bend on a string ...... that always makes it go sharp right?
Same thing .... you're bending the string towards the fretboard.
But really, you don't have to even think about that one .... however your guitar ends up relief-wise, that's what you have to work with so that's what you have to have in tune at the 12th fret.

The screws being pointed the wrong way ..... on all my guitars I turn the bridge to where the screws are towards the back .... don't give a crap how the factory put them ..... you need to be able to get to them for adjustments.
There are some designs where that's not possible but most bridges can be flipped around.
And yes, sometimes a bridge saddle doesn't have quite enough travel ..... if so then there are some things to be done like flipping a saddle around or removing springs to get a little more travel but if it can't go any further then do all you can and that's it.

As for which way to turn the screws ...... good lord, you must understand screws .... if it's sharp at the 12th you want the bridge saddle to go towards the back end so the string's a bit longer .,.... if it's flat at the 12th then you want it a bit shorter. If you can't figure out which way to turn the screw then you'd best not be changing light bulbs either.

This stuff is super easy ...... setting intonation is something I do while watching TV ...... I don't even pay much attention while I do it ......... it's the absolute easiest thing to do on a guitar there is.
No one should have a guitar that they don't set up properly the very first day they have it.
When I get a new guitar that's the very first thing I'll d with it before even playing it .......... and despite what some obsessives might say, once it's done it's done ... unless you change string gauges it's rare that you need to readjust it.

And the idea that any of ya'll can't get your mind around this is silly ...... I see all the deep tech stuff ya'll jabber about and this is way WAY easier than any of that so I'm calling lazybones.
Yes, you absolutely can get deeper into this but for all practical purposes you don't need to ...... this is sufficient.

And Kim can hear an unplugged electric guitar through a floor? Wow ..... I'd hate that ...... I can play sax downstairs and it won't wake wifey.
So I feel for ya' on that one.

[rayc]

@Lt.Bob,no problems with strings - I have heaps of EB Slinkies.
On bass I play all over the place but as a needs must guitarist I play the simple open chords I know and don't play lead so moving beyond the 6th fret isn't something I've needed to do often.
@Greg_L, I'll have to get some gauges - I had some but they were left in NSW along with a lot of loose stuff that hadn't ben put in a box. I'm one of those easily scared people who get nervous around truss rods. I either had it pounded into me that it's a job for specialists or that it can go badly wrong and unlearning such thing is a slow process.

Next Question,
Tele style bridge & saddled...the two strings to a saddle thing...am I supposed to average the intonation of the two strings - is there a better way? I know it's supposed to be Set by the E, D & E strings...is that usually good enough?

[Lt. Bob]

Next Question,
Tele style bridge & saddled...the two strings to a saddle thing...am I supposed to average the intonation of the two strings - is there a better way? I know it's supposed to be Set by the E, D & E strings...is that usually good enough?

Yeah, with that 3 saddle thing you have to do the best you can .... one thing you can do is get some compensated saddles but otherwise just get the most important strings to ya' right and go with that.
The small E and B behave sorta similarly so using the little E works .

Personally I'd be more focused on the G rather than the D on that middle saddle but that's just me .... I find G to be more problematic.

And the low E and A behave fairly similarly so going with the E is fine.

When I built my tele I chose to go with the 3 saddles rather than 6 because I felt that would be closer to the traditional tele sound.
And it did do that.

I keep meaning to order some compensated saddles but just haven't gotten around to it because it's close enough as is and lord knows a zillion players have done just fine with the regular saddles.

[Armistice]

That Tele design "feature" is one reason I never wanted one.

When they started making them with proper bridges and less spanky pickups I thought "Hmmm... perhaps it's time..."

Bridge on my tele - not a huge amount of difference between any particular pair, but pair to pair there is. I guess you just do what you can based on what's possible.

PXL_20221110_224752053.jpg

This article suggests balancing it out - https://hazeguitars.com/blog/setting-in ... ropriate).

It will depend upon your playing style - particularly as you go up the fretboard - action height, and strength of fretting as well, I imagine.

Good luck.

[rayc]

It will depend upon your playing style and strength of fretting as welll...

After about five minutes my fretting strength is rated as cramped muscles locked down onto board.

I'd opt to get a new bridge but as the guitar was $80 delivered that may be a case over over capitalizing BUT if I can't get it to play a little better it may be a case of saving if from the bin.

[rayc]

Personally I'd be more focused on the G rather than the D on that middle saddle but that's just me .... I find G to be more problematic.

Yep, the G is definitely the biggest issue on that guitar.
Ta for the perspective.

[JD01]

Recently I've bought a few decent guitars which were both in pretty bad shape when I got them... my tele was pretty much unplayable and my mustang was just filthy and full of notes grounding out everywhere.

I took them both to a pro for initial setup. They needed truss rod work, fret levelling, nut work and intonation... this lot was at the edge of my skill and beyond my patience. But now I have two lovely guitars that I can make minor tweaks to intonation/action, etc without too much trouble.

I guess what I'm saying Ray is that if your guitars are really wayward in a few different ways it might be worth paying to get them to a decent starting point.

[Lt. Bob]

... this lot was at the edge of my skill and beyond my patience.

Ya' know I've thought about this a fair amount since this thread came up .....why do so few guitarists these days know how to do much about the tech end of fixing their guitars and this statement prolly covers it for the most part.

When I learned to do all this stuff I was 12-18 years old and it was essentially an activity for me that I loved and enjoyed doing .... patience wasn't an issue because even if it took longer than expected, that was great because it was simply more time doing something I enjoyed.

Like a golfer gets better the more he plays and it's easy to get more time at it because that's the very thing he enjoys.

And now that I do have less energy for working hard at new things I already know how to do the git stuff so it's easy and quick.
And I've always had lots of guitars even way back when.

So maybe getting into it at a later age ( having lots of gits to work on I mean) lessens the desire to do this stuff even though it really is simple.

[Greg_L]

Ya' know I've thought about this a fair amount since this thread came up .....why do so few guitarists these days know how to do much about the tech end of fixing their guitars and this statement prolly covers it for the most part.

When I learned to do all this stuff I was 12-18 years old and it was essentially an activity for me that I loved and enjoyed doing .... patience wasn't an issue because even if it took longer than expected, that was great because it was simply more time doing something I enjoyed.

Like a golfer gets better the more he plays and it's easy to get more time at it because that's the very thing he enjoys.

And now that I do have less energy for working hard at new things I already know how to do the git stuff so it's easy and quick.
And I've always had lots of guitars even way back when.

So maybe getting into it at a later age ( having lots of gits to work on I mean) lessens the desire to do this stuff even though it really is simple.

Some people just aren't into the nuts and bolts of things.

[Lt. Bob]

older people