Testing out a new Pickup Winder.

[muttley]

One of the things I have wanted to do for a while is tinker about with a way to automate a winder so I can have two on the go at the same time. One for the custom winds and one to make a cheaper line of pickups that are consistent and also keep a degree of the personal touch. The usual hand wound pickups will be the mainstay but this will add the potential to produce a more affordable line to the range.

With that in mind over the weekend I knocked up a little winder that pretty much does it itself.

I hope to make up some pickups with this in the next few weeks and will be sending them out to a few select people to try out for me.

Check it out. Old school cams and tensioner instead of fingers.

[Greg_L]

Ha very clever. I got two questions:

What about the shape of the cam? It seems like it's speeding up and slowing down the spread of wire across the spool randomly. It jumps fast across the points of the cam. Is that "scatter winding"?

Do you get twist in the wire with it releasing from the spool standing on it's end? If I spool up a fishing reel like that I'd get wicked terrible twist in the line. Letting the line pull off a free spinning spool is way better....with fishing line. Does that matter with pickup wire?

[JD01]

Nice - I was assuming that the thing that looks like a wankel piston was for scatter winding.

So, is the workshop fully open again now?

[muttley]

..............

What about the shape of the cam? It seems like it's speeding up and slowing down the spread of wire across the spool randomly. It jumps fast across the points of the cam. Is that "scatter winding"?

As you probably remember from your days in school and later at the Auto shop, a cam can do quite a bit. In essence it is simply a way to convert circular motion to linear motion. In this instance I need to get cam shapes that will lay up the wire evenly across 4000 to 8000 turns without flaring at the ends or bulging in the centre. Seeing as how there is always a rest point when the cam follower changes direction I need to make sure the follower dwells for the shortest period of time. Traditionally a heart shaped cam is the way to do that. other irregularities in the cam shape will create stops and starts during the traverse to aid a kind of fake scatter. I am working on that still and also on an alternative method of getting a clean reciprocal motion without too much dwelling. Once I have that I can tailor the cam to suit and produce any amount of variations. I love solving problems that involve this sort of stuff.

Do you get twist in the wire with it releasing from the spool standing on it's end? If I spool up a fishing reel like that I'd get wicked terrible twist in the line. Letting the line pull off a free spinning spool is way better....with fishing line. Does that matter with pickup wire?

No problem with twist in the spool wire as it de-reels. The copper wire is actually pretty good at resisting twists all on it's own and unlike nylon or other fishing lines it doesn't want to return to it's original shape once it has been deformed or twisted. Remember the wire here is thinner than a hair and the tensioner keeps it from twisting once it passes the leather pads. Speaking of fishing spools though I was going to investigate the linear travers on those to see if I could crib any ideas about getting an even lay up on the bobbin. I have never taken a fishing reel apart so maybe now is the time...

[muttley]

Nice - I was assuming that the thing that looks like a wankel piston was for scatter winding.

The cam and follower are just a way to get the linear traverse working. One half of the turn on the cam equates to one traverse so by modifying the cam I can control the linear movement as it passes back and forth. It's a work in progress. I'm pretty sure I can come up with a more reliable and predictable model which will give a scatter wind that is consistently repeatable.... to a degree.

So, is the workshop fully open again now?

Yeh, I'm working flat out but suppliers are all still suffering with global shipping delays. Stuff from China is taking months rather than weeks and even here in the UK stuff I could get in a day or two is taking weeks. Luckily I always held pretty good stock of timber but parts are slow in getting to me.

[Lt. Bob]

I have a strat with a padauk neck/body routed for buckers that has first series EMGs.

I actually have been considering getting you to wind some for it.

One thing ..... all the hardware is black and the EMGs of course are black.
I'd like to stay black but not open coils .... a black cover or blackish.

Doable?

[Greg_L]

As you probably remember from your days in school and later at the Auto shop, a cam can do quite a bit. In essence it is simply a way to convert circular motion to linear motion. In this instance I need to get cam shapes that will lay up the wire evenly across 4000 to 8000 turns without flaring at the ends or bulging in the centre. Seeing as how there is always a rest point when the cam follower changes direction I need to make sure the follower dwells for the shortest period of time. Traditionally a heart shaped cam is the way to do that. other irregularities in the cam shape will create stops and starts during the traverse to aid a kind of fake scatter. I am working on that still and also on an alternative method of getting a clean reciprocal motion without too much dwelling. Once I have that I can tailor the cam to suit and produce any amount of variations. I love solving problems that involve this sort of stuff.

That's what I was getting at without being able to put it into words very well - the dwell. You don't want the guide's change in direction or speed to pile up too much wire in one spot. Basically the change in direction at the ends of the bobbins is going to have the wire spending too much time in those areas so the back-and-forth guide mechanism will need to speed up a little at those points. Cam shape will do that. If you can find the right balance between cam shape, cam speed, and bobbin spindle speed you'd be golden! And really, I think if you can sync the spindle speed with the cam speed, then cam shape will be all you'd have to mess with for an even wind.

No problem with twist in the spool wire as it de-reels. The copper wire is actually pretty good at resisting twists all on it's own and unlike nylon or other fishing lines it doesn't want to return to it's original shape once it has been deformed or twisted. Remember the wire here is thinner than a hair and the tensioner keeps it from twisting once it passes the leather pads. Speaking of fishing spools though I was going to investigate the linear travers on those to see if I could crib any ideas about getting an even lay up on the bobbin. I have never taken a fishing reel apart so maybe now is the time...

A lot of baitcaster reels have a "level wind" mechanism that does exactly what you want. The guide moves back and forth to bring the line back in evenly across the spool. I've never taken one apart fully enough to see how it does it. But in use you can see the guide speed up at the ends like I mentioned above so the fishing line doesn't spend too much time at the ends of the spool. On larger open reels we have to do it manually with our thumb as we reel the line in. I think if you examine some exploded views of fishing reels you might be able to come up with something. It seems like winding a bobbin and spooling a fishing reel isn't that different.

[muttley]

I have a strat with a padauk neck/body routed for buckers that has first series EMGs.

I actually have been considering getting you to wind some for it.

One thing ..... all the hardware is black and the EMGs of course are black.
I'd like to stay black but not open coils .... a black cover or blackish.

Doable?

I bet that Padauk weighs in a bit heavier than your normal strat.

Yeh, I can get closed covers for most things now assuming they are in stock in the UK and don't have to ship from China. I have found a supply of Nickle silver matt black covers which are infinitely better than the tone sucking brass black ones that are widely available. They look really cool to but are a real finger print magnet.

I just did some Strat pups with closed black covers for Gerg (well not him, his buddy, Gerg hasn't gone all Hank Marvin Strat on us just yet). I got them pretty quick but I was also doing a Ripper in black with black blades, they took an age to get here from China and the supplier I use is pretty good normally.

Let me know what you are after and I will spec it out and get back to you if you are interested.

[Greg_L]

Gerg hasn't gone all Hank Marvin Strat on us just yet).

It's funny you say that...I honestly just watched a video of him doing an instrumental version of "The Young Ones".

[muttley]

That's what I was getting at without being able to put it into words very well - the dwell. You don't want the guide's change in direction or speed to pile up too much wire in one spot. Basically the change in direction at the ends of the bobbins is going to have the wire spending too much time in those areas so the back-and-forth guide mechanism will need to speed up a little at those points. Cam shape will do that. If you can find the right balance between cam shape, cam speed, and bobbin spindle speed you'd be golden! And really, I think if you can sync the spindle speed with the cam speed, then cam shape will be all you'd have to mess with for an even wind.

Thats it in a nutshell. The fist mm or so of return needs to accelerate to avoid that. I am playing with cams at the moment but there is every chance I may change to a pivot arm if the basic cam follower doesn't cut it. Ultimately I want to dot it with cnc stepper motor and linear rail as I can program this shit in G code easily. Right now I just don't have the time.

A lot of baitcaster reels have a "level wind" mechanism that does exactly what you want. The guide moves back and forth to bring the line back in evenly across the spool. I've never taken one apart fully enough to see how it does it. But in use you can see the guide speed up at the ends like I mentioned above so the fishing line doesn't spend too much time at the ends of the spool. On larger open reels we have to do it manually with our thumb as we reel the line in. I think if you examine some exploded views of fishing reels you might be able to come up with something. It seems like winding a bobbin and spooling a fishing reel isn't that different.

I'm going to look into those reals and try and get my head round how they work. I used to fish as a kid with my Uncles and didn't pay much attention to them back then. Very true that the principles are the same I'm just going on a smaller and faster scale and no need for bait. Lots of waiting about though...

[muttley]

Gerg hasn't gone all Hank Marvin Strat on us just yet).

It's funny you say that...I honestly just watched a video of him doing an instrumental version of "The Young Ones".

He was quite influential in his day in a "better than Bert Weedon" kind of way. Too cheesy for me though.

[Greg_L]

Thats it in a nutshell. The fist mm or so of return needs to accelerate to avoid that. I am playing with cams at the moment but there is every chance I may change to a pivot arm if the basic cam follower doesn't cut it. Ultimately I want to dot it with cnc stepper motor and linear rail as I can program this shit in G code easily. Right now I just don't have the time.

I think the three-sided point shape might be a problem. You really only need a speed change at the ends of the bobbin where the guide changes direction. The third point creates a speed change in the middle or wherever it happens to happen. That's probably a hiccup. So I think a more football shaped cam would be better....or like an oval shape. You'll get smooth steady speed across the broad sides of the oval, and when it reaches the tighter radiused ends it will speed up and change directions.

If you think of it like a cam lobe on an engine camshaft...the lobe is a pretty smooth radius for the most part. The lifter/rocker arm follows that shape smoothly. Then when it's time to open the valve, the cam lobe radius gets taller and tighter. This opens the valve quickly and as the follower crosses the apex of the lobe the valve closes quickly under spring tension. Then it goes back to the smoother radius and the lifter slows down through the base circle of the camshaft. That's essentially one-half of the action you're performing on the winder. So you'd need a cam lobe with two "quick" profiles on one cam lobe....like an oval. Or maybe like an egg shape.

Or maybe I'm just way off and should shut up.

[muttley]

I think the three-sided point shape might be a problem. You really only need a speed change at the ends of the bobbin where the guide changes direction. The third point creates a speed change in the middle or wherever it happens to happen. That's probably a hiccup. So I think a more football shaped cam would be better....or like an oval shape. You'll get smooth steady speed across the broad sides of the oval, and when it reaches the tighter radiused ends it will speed up and change directions.

If you think of it like a cam lobe on an engine camshaft...the lobe is a pretty smooth radius for the most part. The lifter/rocker arm follows that shape smoothly. Then when it's time to open the valve, the cam lobe radius gets taller and tighter. This opens the valve quickly and as the follower crosses the apex of the lobe the valve closes quickly under spring tension. Then it goes back to the smoother radius and the lifter slows down through the base circle of the camshaft. That's essentially one-half of the action you're performing on the winder. So you'd need a cam lobe with two "quick" profiles on one cam lobe....like an oval.

An oval or ball shaped cam wont work. Think about the linear motion as being two travels for one rotation of the cam. I can demonstrate hang on.....






cos I already did that with out thinking it through..

[Greg_L]

An oval or ball shaped cam wont work. Think about the linear motion as being two travels for one rotation of the cam. I can demonstrate hang on.....






cos I already did that with out thinking it through..

No I thought more about it after I posted. An oval won't work. An egg or off-center oval might though if you can balance the shape against the spring tension orf you can make the tight radius of the spinning egg coincide with the ends of the bobbin?

[muttley]

At it's narrow point the follower is to the right of the bobbin and at the point the follower is to the left. Essentially at it's point the cam will dwell for a shorther period but only to the left of the bobbin.

This is why a heart shaped cam seems to be the way to go. Its been a while since I did any cam formulating so this is fun....

[muttley]

An oval or ball shaped cam wont work. Think about the linear motion as being two travels for one rotation of the cam. I can demonstrate hang on.....






cos I already did that with out thinking it through..

No I thought more about it after I posted. An oval won't work. An egg or off-center oval might though if you can balance the shape against the spring tension orf you can make the tight radius of the spinning egg coincide with the ends of the bobbin?

That's kind of where I am right now. The Heart shaped and off centre to dictate the pitch of the travel.

[Greg_L]

Yeah very interesting. Very cool project.

[Lt. Bob]

I have a strat with a padauk neck/body routed for buckers that has first series EMGs.

I actually have been considering getting you to wind some for it.

One thing ..... all the hardware is black and the EMGs of course are black.
I'd like to stay black but not open coils .... a black cover or blackish.

Doable?

I bet that Padauk weighs in a bit heavier than your normal strat.

Yeh, I can get closed covers for most things now assuming they are in stock in the UK and don't have to ship from China. I have found a supply of Nickle silver matt black covers which are infinitely better than the tone sucking brass black ones that are widely available. They look really cool to but are a real finger print magnet.

I just did some Strat pups with closed black covers for Gerg (well not him, his buddy, Gerg hasn't gone all Hank Marvin Strat on us just yet). I got them pretty quick but I was also doing a Ripper in black with black blades, they took an age to get here from China and the supplier I use is pretty good normally.

Let me know what you are after and I will spec it out and get back to you if you are interested.

yeah, it's heavy

I think my international calling is free ..... if so, I think a phone call would be better than interminable PMs so lemme check that

I can tell ya' one of my favorite sounds of all time was my Starcaster with the wide-range p'ups
Awesome singing sound.

I know you can actually do wide range because of the threaded magnets but a similar sound would be my desire

[muttley]

I bet that Padauk weighs in a bit heavier than your normal strat.

Yeh, I can get closed covers for most things now assuming they are in stock in the UK and don't have to ship from China. I have found a supply of Nickle silver matt black covers which are infinitely better than the tone sucking brass black ones that are widely available. They look really cool to but are a real finger print magnet.

I just did some Strat pups with closed black covers for Gerg (well not him, his buddy, Gerg hasn't gone all Hank Marvin Strat on us just yet). I got them pretty quick but I was also doing a Ripper in black with black blades, they took an age to get here from China and the supplier I use is pretty good normally.

Let me know what you are after and I will spec it out and get back to you if you are interested.

yeah, it's heavy

I think my international calling is free ..... if so, I think a phone call would be better than interminable PMs so lemme check that

Sure, I will PM you my number and we can work out a window for you to call that suits both time zones. If nothing else a few quick txts would be better than a rolling thread

[CeeBee]

Have look at a sewing machine bobbin wind mechanism, they seem to have it worked out. I'm sure your missus won't mind you taking it apart, all in the name of progress