Tuplets and Nested Tuplets in MIDI

[JD01]

OK... as a bit of a challenge to myself I want to try a small section in a song which goes a bit Zappa.

I've kind of worked out a few little ideas just using three metronomes, so I have a DAW clicking away, my phone and an iPad.

The only way I can think of to programme something like this would be, say if the piece is at 100bpm and I want 7/4 pulse with nested tuplets at 5/4 and 3/4, I then have to find the lowest number that 7, 5 and 3 is divisible by then multiply by BPM by this value. That doesn't seem right.

Hang on, if I have 7 beats and within each 7 I want 5. Then I need my bar to be 35 beat long but at 500bpm?.
But then if I want to nest 3 beats within each 5 I need to make my bar 105 beats long but at 1500bpm?

So, I need to insert a section will only be 8 bars long, of 105/4 at 1500bpm? Then I can manually pop in markers every 35 beats to show where my "strong" bars are?

What I'm going to do is have a song go from 4/4, into 7/4 for a couple of normal bars (let the 7/4 bed in so it doesn't just sound likes its fallen apart) then add in all this weirdness, before the song goes straight back into 4/4. A bit like that bit in the middle of closer by NIN where it all falls apart but then just comes back together. (I know this wasn't actually anything clever and thought out here, Trent Reznor just chucked in a recording of himself checking the drum sounds)

Sounds like chaos? I guess you're all gonna find out in a few weeks.

[Greg_L]

If you have to do math to write a song it won't be a good song.

[vomitHatSteve]

If you have to do math to write a song it won't be a good song.

Hundreds of math rock artists and thousands of Tool fans would disagree... nerdily.

Depending on your DAW, there should be settings for how it subdivides beats in the MIDI editor.

[Greg_L]

Hundreds of math rock artists and thousands of Tool fans would disagree

I think you just made my point for me!

[rayc]

I like the timetables aspect of Tool.

[Armistice]

Eek. Nested tuplets...

Song I'm working on has an instrumental middle section, which, when played to a click, makes perfect sense and fits in fine, but I couldn't help but notice when it came to programming the drums that I have about zero actual idea what time signature it morphed into, so I just bumbled on through without bothering to work it out properly and it worked out OK, although the bars of the final section of the song no longer start where expected.

[JD01]

Depending on your DAW, there should be settings for how it subdivides beats in the MIDI editor.

Its Reaper - I'll take a look at the MIDI strip on it. If I can get it to subdivide a 7/4 up the way I want that would be great. I'd rather not have a short section plonked in with a stupid tempo which I'd then have to manually add markers to so I can work out where I am

[JD01]

Eek. Nested tuplets...

Song I'm working on has an instrumental middle section, which, when played to a click, makes perfect sense and fits in fine, but I couldn't help but notice when it came to programming the drums that I have about zero actual idea what time signature it morphed into, so I just bumbled on through without bothering to work it out properly and it worked out OK, although the bars of the final section of the song no longer start where expected.

I've had that happen a few times. Its actually worth working out the time signature and adjusting your timeline for that section so it all fits, just 'cos it makes programming the drums in other sections of the song really confusing.

[vomitHatSteve]

Depending on your DAW, there should be settings for how it subdivides beats in the MIDI editor.

Its Reaper - I'll take a look at the MIDI strip on it. If I can get it to subdivide a 7/4 up the way I want that would be great. I'd rather not have a short section plonked in with a stupid tempo which I'd then have to manually add markers to so I can work out where I am

Looking at it now, there's a "grid" drop down on the bototm that lets you subdivide up to 128th notes and then put the grid on a straight, swing, dotted, or triplet pattern. So between straight, and triplet, you can subdivide each beat into 32 or 48 counts. Swing and dotted look a little more complicated

[JD01]

Its Reaper - I'll take a look at the MIDI strip on it. If I can get it to subdivide a 7/4 up the way I want that would be great. I'd rather not have a short section plonked in with a stupid tempo which I'd then have to manually add markers to so I can work out where I am

Looking at it now, there's a "grid" drop down on the bototm that lets you subdivide up to 128th notes and then put the grid on a straight, swing, dotted, or triplet pattern. So between straight, and triplet, you can subdivide each beat into 32 or 48 counts. Swing and dotted look a little more complicated

I'm just deciding whether to drop this section in the middle of the song I'm working on at the moment or leave it for the next one.

[Armistice]

I've played around with the swing timing a bit but it never really worked for me. The current tune I'm working on is a bit swingy, and in the end, rather than working out what percentage of swing I wanted (given I add full drums after tracking everything else, so they have to follow the instruments) I just nudged individual snare hits backwards a bit to create the feel.

And then retracked the bass which was a bit straight.

[Armistice]

Or do I mean forwards? That way -> whatever that is...

[vomitHatSteve]

I've played around with the swing timing a bit but it never really worked for me. The current tune I'm working on is a bit swingy, and in the end, rather than working out what percentage of swing I wanted (given I add full drums after tracking everything else, so they have to follow the instruments) I just nudged individual snare hits backwards a bit to create the feel.

And then retracked the bass which was a bit straight.

Yeah, that's usually been my strategy. I'll sometimes futz with triplet feel, but if it needs to be something swingy, I just move some notes manually.