Recording acoustic guitar and vocal at the same time

[Tadpui]

I've been kind of obsessing over this topic recently, ever since [mention]paulman[/mention] posted the video his the Tears For Fears cover. At some point, he'd mentioned having trouble getting separation between the vocal and guitar mic. Since I've got the same two microphones (Avantone CV-12 and Shure SM57), I figured that I'd play around and see what kind of separation I could get by trying a few different setups.

I tried it the way that Paul had his set up, which would have also been my obvious first choice at the setup, with the CV-12 in cardioid mode on the vocals, and the SM57 on the guitar. I mean, the SM57 is an instrument mic, and the CV-12 is a vocal mic. It seemed like a no-brainer. But I had the same troubles that Paul had, where the bleed into both mics was substantial.

So I swapped them around and tried the CV-12 on guitar and the SM57 on vocals. Still, a considerable amount of bleed. It was a little better, because I can get my face really close to the SM57, so I can turn the gain down a bit, which lessens the guitar bleeding into the SM57. I mean, the bleed is still there, but the vocal is so much louder than the guitar that it isn't nearly the big problem that it had been. But there was still a lot of bleeding of the vocals into the guitar mic.

So I tried one more thing and put the CV-12 into figure-8 mode. I put the mic on its side and angled it so that the front was facing the guitar and the side was facing my face. Due to the super deep null at the sides of a figure-8 pattern, the CV-12 rejected the direct sound of my vocal. There is still some ambient bleed of the vocal into the guitar mic, but I think that setting up my gobos in front of me will lessen it even more.

I ended up with enough separation that I could add compression to each track individually without things getting weird. And as a last-minute decision (that I kinda regret now) I was even able to add some lo-fi slap-back delay to the vocal and it didn't make the guitar sound weird in the mix. I subtracted a little low shelf EQ to each track, although things are still pretty dark and boomy. With more EQ work, I bet that each track could be nice and present but still be complimentary to each other in a mix.

Anyways, here's what I ended up with (sorry it's a pretty gross performance of a hastily-written song idea):

SM57 on vocals:

SM57 Vocal.mp3

CV-12 on guitar:

Avantone Figure 8 Guitar.mp3

And both together:

Both together.mp3

I've been trying to record a video on the subject, but there are a few obstacles:
- I've gotta write a less cringey song for the demo
- I've gotta practice playing and singing at the same time, because I'm way rusty on this skill
- Lighting and camera angles are becoming a problem to show what I'm actually doing
- There is now so much clutter of audio and video gear around me, I don't have space to put my gobos up in a helpful spot

[Lt. Bob]

that sounds pretty good and the solo'd tracks show a decent amount of separation .....

[Tadpui]

that sounds pretty good and the solo'd tracks show a decent amount of separation .....

Thanks Bob, this was a fun experiment. I know I can get them even better with more practice in positioning and trying different mics. But with the mics at hand, I was pretty surprised at how much separation there was.

[rayc]

Good work bringing the mic's multi pattern ability into the game - cool.
Slap Back - yep, not an exciting addition.

[vomitHatSteve]

There's a lot more bleed than I normally like in the solo tracks, but combined, it worked pretty well.

[Greg_L]

I don't see what the problem is. Sounds fine. I even like the slap-back. I don't know how much separation one should expect when doing both at the same time.

[Farview]

It sounds fine. You don't need any more separation than that.

Besides using the polar patterns to your advantage, it sounds like you performed with the proper dynamics. People sometimes get themselves into trouble when they sing much louder or much quieter than the guitar. That makes getting a usable recording impossible. You have avoided that trap, good job.

[Tadpui]

Good work bringing the mic's multi pattern ability into the game - cool.
Slap Back - yep, not an exciting addition.

Yeah, the slapback was a last minute "I wonder if I can" kind of thing. Actually now that I think of it, I love hearing slapback on vocals when other people do it. I have yet to do it myself and like the results. It always sounds too conspicuous. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

There's a lot more bleed than I normally like in the solo tracks, but combined, it worked pretty well.

One caveat to these solo tracks is that I added compression to each of them individually. That probably undid some of the separation. I'll post the dry tracks later today/tonight when I'm in front of the computer again. Maybe that'll sound a bit more isolated?

I'm certainly all ears for suggestions on how to isolate them further. Do you have any tips or tricks that I can test out? About the only thing I've got left in the tank is to use two figure-8 mics and the gobos and see how that works. I'm excited to see just how "socially distant" I can get the tracks

I don't see what the problem is. Sounds fine. I even like the slap-back. I don't know how much separation one should expect when doing both at the same time.

Same here, since this isn't something that I've done very much of, I'm not sure what the end-game is here. I know they'll never be completely isolated from each other, but I'll try another few experiments to see how far I can take it with the gear I have on hand.

It sounds fine. You don't need any more separation than that.

Besides using the polar patterns to your advantage, it sounds like you performed with the proper dynamics. People sometimes get themselves into trouble when they sing much louder or much quieter than the guitar. That makes getting a usable recording impossible. You have avoided that trap, good job.

Ah yes, good point about the dynamics! Believe me, it was truly by accident But now that you mention it, I can see how it'd be a big problem for somebody that plays like SRV but sings like Sufjan Stevens. (what a weird band that would be)

One other thing that factored in was the distance between the mics and their respective source. I've really got them crammed in close, which introduces quite a bit of proximity effect. That condenser is probably 4"-6" away from the neck/body joint, which is really close for my tastes. But any farther away and the vocal bleed starts to get overbearing. I'm not sure what the magic formula for that predicament is.

Anyways, any further suggestions or experiments that I can try? Toss 'em my way!

[paulman]

That sounds really good, man. The blend is great, you mixed it really well. For me, I really want the Avantone on my voice (or any other voice I record). I've gotten spoiled by it, the detail that it captures. It finds every nook and cranny, every groan and creak. Of course it does the same for an acoustic guitar or anything else, but I prioritize vocals above everything else. So if I have to choose for a live-in-the-studio performance, I have to have the Avantone on the vocal. When I'm multitracking, I use it on everything. I'm just going to research a better mic than a 57 for the acoustic in this situation.

[Tadpui]

That sounds really good, man. The blend is great, you mixed it really well. For me, I really want the Avantone on my voice (or any other voice I record). I've gotten spoiled by it, the detail that it captures. It finds every nook and cranny, every groan and creak. Of course it does the same for an acoustic guitar or anything else, but I prioritize vocals above everything else. So if I have to choose for a live-in-the-studio performance, I have to have the Avantone on the vocal. When I'm multitracking, I use it on everything. I'm just going to research a better mic than a 57 for the acoustic in this situation.

Thanks! And I truly understand, the CV-12 is really a gem of a vocal mic. Those highs are so silky, and it's so versatile. Honestly I'd choose it over an SM57 for vocals any day of the week. And I love it on acoustic guitar, outside the kick drum, and even as an omni "catch all" mic.

Maybe pair it with another great mid-priced large diaphragm condenser like the AKG C214, Lewitt LTC440, Rode NT1 or NTK, Roswell Mini K47, Warm Audio WA47. There are so many awesome choices in the "not exorbitant" price range these days, you've got a lot to choose from. Oh jeez, Mojave, Shure, Aston...too many to name. They all have stunning offerings at relatively affordable prices.

The good news is that you've got a great voice, so that makes it so that you don't have to try very hard to get a great sound. You can pretty much pick something and run with it!

[paulman]

[mention]Tadpui[/mention] Thanks man! I appreciate that. Hey, I came across this last night, if you're interested.

https://microphone-parts.com/pages/avantone-cv12-mods

I think that the CV-12's they make now are improved from when I bought mine, as far as fixing that excessive high end you have to deal with. I don't know whether you have one just like mine or a newer one. In any case, this link has some mods you can do to make it sound even better and get rid of that high end at the source rather than in the mix. One thing on this list I did right when I bought the mic was replace the tube in it with a vintage one. So my mic never has been stock, but I do have that high end to deal with.

[rayc]

"... and get rid of that high end at the source rather than in the mix."

Surgery?

[Tadpui]

[mention]paulman[/mention] I bought mine in 2013, so I'm not sure where that places it in the line of revisions. The highs have always been pleasant on mine. That's the thing that I most associate with this mic is the smooth high frequency response. I'm still using the stock cheapo tube even! If the stock tube ever fails, I'll experiment a bit. I can't even remember what the value is for the stock tube...12AT7 or 12AY7, I think?

It's a great mic, and I'm glad that I've re-familiarized myself with it after having it tucked away in its case for the last couple of years. My last studio room was so tiny, I didn't have room to accommodate the power supply. Now that I'm in a much bigger room, I've been able to play around with it again, and I'm loving it!

[vomitHatSteve]

"... and get rid of that high end at the source rather than in the mix."

Surgery?

Sounds more like hormone replacement therapy.

[paulman]

Surgery?

Sounds more like hormone replacement therapy.

From what I've read, it's a defect in the mic (that has been addressed in newer models). It's well-known for having a harsh high end, but it can be worked with. I knew about it before I bought it, but people said it's not an issue if you know how to deal with it. And they were right, but I'm at the point now with recording in general where I'm trying to make everything I record sound as good as possible at the source, rather than fixing things in the mix. Thus my movement away from digital emulations, thinking about getting a higher-end acoustic guitar, and interest in modding my Avantone. Thing is, just replacing the tube was hard as fuck. I hope I'm up to replacing that circuit in the mic.

[Tadpui]

Sounds more like hormone replacement therapy.

From what I've read, it's a defect in the mic (that has been addressed in newer models). It's well-known for having a harsh high end, but it can be worked with. I knew about it before I bought it, but people said it's not an issue if you know how to deal with it. And they were right, but I'm at the point now with recording in general where I'm trying to make everything I record sound as good as possible at the source, rather than fixing things in the mix. Thus my movement away from digital emulations, thinking about getting a higher-end acoustic guitar, and interest in modding my Avantone. Thing is, just replacing the tube was hard as fuck. I hope I'm up to replacing that circuit in the mic.

Haha, yeah I tried putting a 12AX7 in that mic one time, and it was a pain to get to it and swap out the tube. For the record, a 12AX7 sounds awful in this mic

It doesn't help that mine has a couple of stripped screw holes inside, where those teeny tiny little screws hold the innards together. Neat feature that mine came with pre-stripped screws!

[vomitHatSteve]

Sounds more like hormone replacement therapy.

From what I've read, it's a defect in the mic (that has been addressed in newer models). It's well-known for having a harsh high end, but it can be worked with. I knew about it before I bought it, but people said it's not an issue if you know how to deal with it. And they were right, but I'm at the point now with recording in general where I'm trying to make everything I record sound as good as possible at the source, rather than fixing things in the mix. Thus my movement away from digital emulations, thinking about getting a higher-end acoustic guitar, and interest in modding my Avantone. Thing is, just replacing the tube was hard as fuck. I hope I'm up to replacing that circuit in the mic.

You make a joke...

I was interpreting the "source" as being the vocalist, see