I didn't get electrocuted the first time...let's try another!!!

[Lt. Bob]

nah ...... it's just idle speculation ..... has virtually no importance to me at all..

First, I wasn't talking about trying different power tubes in my amp if that's what you thought I meant.
I'm not stupid and know quite a bit about amps and I'm literally the last person on the face of the Earth you need to explain that you can't try different power tubes in amps.
Perhaps you meant to make sure that others reading the thread would know that because you couldn't possibly think that I don't know enough about amps to need this explained.
I specifically mentioned the verb and was talking specifically about the verb and only mentioned the verb .....

As for all that other stuff ...... meh, way more effort than needed ...... I may have a 12AU7 though and I may try that just to see.
And that was really all i was asking.

Once again, you way overestimate my concerns with stuff like this ...... that's something beginners or amateurs do .... not me.
If a quirk of this amp is having a very sensitive reverb knob it'll just be part of the amp ....... I really don't care ..... I'll learn where it's what i want regardless.
The amp's in-fucking-credible ..... please don't think I'm such a newb that I stress about something like a sensitive verb knob.

[Greg_L]

Lol well you said "I wonder if I can put that in my amp" so I thought you were genuinely wondering. Sorry.

[Lt. Bob]

Lol well you said "I wonder if I can put that in my amp" so I thought you were genuinely wondering. Sorry.

Sorry is never necessary with me ...... I wasn't mad about it .... just surprised that I apparently haven't communicated that I'm knowledgeable about amps. I would have thought I had so it surprised me.
I was musing about that different OT that you were talking about.

I can see the confusion though because I did say "I wonder if I can put that in my amp" , but I was talking about the different output tranny, not the tube.
I mean power tubes have nothing to do with reverb.

And no way I'd go to the effort of changing a tranny either but I was speculating about it and I suppose a little curious about the differences between your stand alone reverb and the circuit in my amp.
So fill me in on that.

As for your reverb ..... wanna hear it ... genuinely curious.

As for mine ....... I would never change to a smaller tank .... they suck.
I've never heard a small tank verb I liked ..... mid sized tanks either.
In fact I dislike them ..... to me they sound like cheesy Fender verb wannabes ... even in Fender amps that use them .... blech.... in fact I have 3 short tanks laying around that i yanked out of amps and replaced because i hate them so much.
You may even remember that when you were doing the first amp I asked if it had a long tank and when you said it did I went 'YAY' .... that's 'cause the only tanks I like are long ones.
I like that big cavernous long decay.

I love the way my verb sounds and don't want to change that.
The only thing I'd like to do if it's possible is get that sweet spot up a bit higher on the knob because right now the difference between too much verb and not enough is a very tiny movement of the knob.

I can deal with that of course but if a 12au7 would move that up a bit without changing the sound that would be an ideal so I'm gonna try it because it's my favorite kind of mod .... one that requires almost no effort on my part!

[Greg_L]

Yeah I suspect a 12AU7 would probably force you to go higher up on the dial for the same amount of reverb. It's worth a try, though I'm not sure that will definitely do the trick. I don't think it would change the tone of the reverb. It just would be less powerful allowing you to use more of it.

My standalone unit and the on-board reverb in your amp are totally different. Yeah they're both tube driven spring reverbs, but they go about it in their own ways. Your Deluxe Reverb's internal reverb has it's own little OT and tube to drive the reverb tank, but after that it hits another gain stage to re-boost the signal as it moves along to the phase inverter.

The standalone is literally a full amp all on it's own. It's basically a lot like a Fender Champ. But instead of pushing a speaker, it pushes a reverb tank. It has no recovery tube so it uses a single-ended output stage and pentode power tube to drive the reverb tank and push the signal out to another amp. I could disconnect the reverb tank and hook up an 8 ohm speaker and have a little 3 watt amp out of it.

I'll get some fresh clips of it soon. I haven't had much loud time lately.

[Lt. Bob]

The standalone is literally a full amp all on it's own. It's basically a lot like a Fender Champ. But instead of pushing a speaker, it pushes a reverb tank. It has no recovery tube so it uses a single-ended output stage and pentode power tube to drive the reverb tank and push the signal out to another amp. I could disconnect the reverb tank and hook up an 8 ohm speaker and have a little 3 watt amp out of it.

so it must drive that tank a lot harder than the verb circuit in mine drives my tank?
Are the tanks similar or does your use a different sorta tank?
I find myself wondering about the possibility of overdriving the tank resulting in a sorta distortion.

Maybe a desirable distortion.

it seems like there's gonna be a dramatically different level of drive on the tank itself and wouldn't that result in a sorta different tone and if so, is that part of the magic verb on that unit?.

[Greg_L]

so it must drive that tank a lot harder than the verb circuit in mine drives my tank?
Are the tanks similar or does your use a different sorta tank?
I find myself wondering about the possibility of overdriving the tank resulting in a sorta distortion.

Maybe a desirable distortion.

it seems like there's gonna be a dramatically different level of drive on the tank itself and wouldn't that result in a sorta different tone and if so, is that part of the magic verb on that unit?.

I misspoke a little. There IS a recovery tube after the tank on the standalone. It's a 12AX7. Half of that tube is recovery, the other half is a buffer for the dry signal. They get mixed back together before heading out to an external amp.

I remembered and then re-checked the schematic to verify. I hadn't looked at it in a while.

Anyway, our reverb tanks are pretty much exactly similar. The only difference is that mine is meant to hang vertically, yours is meant to lay flat. I don't know if my unit drives the tank much harder than yours, if at all. I'd have to put them both on a scope. I don't know the math to calculate all that. Our little reverb OTs are damn near exactly similar besides the primary load they want to see. Since both of our reverb OTs are living like they want to, the tubes will act like they're supposed to. And your double-triode 12AT7 and my 6K6 are actually fairly similar in their voltages and potential output even though they're vastly different tubes. But it does stand to reason that the 6V6 I had in mine was pushing a hotter signal through the tank resulting in way more reverb getting out of it. What got me thinking about all this is that in reading about the original early 60s reverbs a lot of people were talking about the "666" settings...which simply means "put everything on 6". If I did that on mine it was fucking crazy amounts of reverb. So I dug in and decided to put it closer to correct 60s specs. It worked. So again, maybe dropping to a 12AU7 will reduce the reverb in yours so you can get more range out of it without doing anything else. A 12AU7 has way less gain than a 12AT7. Another thing that works in your favor is that's all that tube spot does. Your V3 is the reverb driver and it uses both halves of that tube to push the signal through the tank. So swapping that tube won't affect anything else. Both halves of that tube are dedicated to a single thing.

IMO the main difference between the sound of our two reverbs is that mine goes in front of main amp like a pedal, yours is inside the amp and the mixing of wet and dry happens later in the signal path. How they interact with the guitar signal and pass through gain stages is way different. And in my experience they both have their own pros and cons. The "magic" of the standalone reverb is only magic to certain people with certain needs. It'd be a huge pain in the ass for others. If you want reverb as an actual noticeable effect, then the standalone is perfect. It has a beautiful transparent "drip" that is perfect for surf and rockabilly. It truly doesn't get any better than the standalone unit for the "drip". But if you just want a nice smooth
reverb ambience for regular guitar playing then the standalone can be a problem and the standard internal Fender reverb is better. The standalone is also it's own amp, so that's one more thing to lug around with it's own cables and plugs and all that.

[Lt. Bob]

cool ...... I seem to remember at one of the Jamfests Charva used a Fender Reverb unit as more of a distortion pedal.
he described it as being it's own little amp but you could run it into the front end of an amp and use it sorta like a tubed overdrive.
only thing I'm not positive is if it was in fact a reverb unit or something else.

So could that be a way to use that unit?

[Greg_L]

cool ...... I seem to remember at one of the Jamfests Charva used a Fender Reverb unit as more of a distortion pedal.
he described it as being it's own little amp but you could run it into the front end of an amp and use it sorta like a tubed overdrive.
only thing I'm not positive is if it was in fact a reverb unit or something else.

So could that be a way to use that unit?

Not in it's stock form. The net result of the unit in stock form is pretty much neutral gain. It doesn't really drive an amp any harder than not being there at all. The only tube stage the clean signal sees is a cathode follower buffer stage. That's not a gain stage. The wet signal path does get boosted but it also gets hammered by a reverb tank. So I suppose if you modded the unit to bypass the tank it could be used as a tube overdrive. That would be a really hot signal though. I would think just using the very first stage and the dwell as a gain pot would be more than enough and just bypass the rest of it.

[Lt. Bob]

and I'm not 100% positive it was a reverb unit but I don't remember fender ever having something similar in appearance that it could have been

[Greg_L]

and I'm not 100% positive it was a reverb unit but I don't remember fender ever having something similar in appearance that it could have been

I thought that maybe they could be used like that before I really dug into it. But there's no way....or I'm not seeing a way without mods. It wouldn't take much to make it happen though.

[Lt. Bob]

I actually reached out to the guy just to find out ....... letcha know

[einstein magoo]

Just mentioning this cause it seems inline with an amp into an amp.

Not a reverb thing, but when I blew the speaker on my little 60s vintage Kalamazoo Model 1 (5watt tube amp - 1st amp for me) I twisted the speaker wires onto a cable with a 1/4" jack and would plug that into the front of my Gibson Invader amp. I know - throw some AC into the input of the Gibson, not a great idea, but DAMN man, that thing would sing with some awesome overdrive! Never blew anything up, and I was jamming a lot back then with this set-up.

Fuck physics, if it works, it works!
Is the speaker output AC?

Maybe that's part of the reason my lips would tingle when they touched the mike! No grounds on anything back then, and lets of ways for a pure dumbass to get electrocuted!

[Lt. Bob]

well that's basically a super high gain overdrive and one that can go from clean to dirty with plenty of drive.
Driving it into the front end would be similar to some of the higher gain boosts out there.

[Greg_L]

Just mentioning this cause it seems inline with an amp into an amp.

Not a reverb thing, but when I blew the speaker on my little 60s vintage Kalamazoo Model 1 (5watt tube amp - 1st amp for me) I twisted the speaker wires onto a cable with a 1/4" jack and would plug that into the front of my Gibson Invader amp. I know - throw some AC into the input of the Gibson, not a great idea, but DAMN man, that thing would sing with some awesome overdrive! Never blew anything up, and I was jamming a lot back then with this set-up.

Fuck physics, if it works, it works!
Is the speaker output AC?

Maybe that's part of the reason my lips would tingle when they touched the mike! No grounds on anything back then, and lets of ways for a pure dumbass to get electrocuted!

Lol yes speaker output is AC and it's mild voltage but pretty high current. I do not know how you didn't melt the first stage of the second amp. Amp inputs expect to see millivolts and microwatts. The resistors alone are maybe 1 watt at best on input stages. Usually more like 1/2 watt. And you fed up to 5 watts in there? And it worked? Crazy. I'm shocked you didn't ruin both amps.

[einstein magoo]

Just mentioning this cause it seems inline with an amp into an amp.

Not a reverb thing, but when I blew the speaker on my little 60s vintage Kalamazoo Model 1 (5watt tube amp - 1st amp for me) I twisted the speaker wires onto a cable with a 1/4" jack and would plug that into the front of my Gibson Invader amp. I know - throw some AC into the input of the Gibson, not a great idea, but DAMN man, that thing would sing with some awesome overdrive! Never blew anything up, and I was jamming a lot back then with this set-up.

Fuck physics, if it works, it works!
Is the speaker output AC?

Maybe that's part of the reason my lips would tingle when they touched the mike! No grounds on anything back then, and lets of ways for a pure dumbass to get electrocuted!

Lol yes speaker output is AC and it's mild voltage but pretty high current. I do not know how you didn't melt the first stage of the second amp. Amp inputs expect to see millivolts and microwatts. The resistors alone are maybe 1 watt at best on input stages. Usually more like 1/2 watt. And you fed up to 5 watts in there? And it worked? Crazy. I'm shocked you didn't ruin both amps.

Thanks! After I sold the Invader amp I kept the little Kalamazoo. Band was not working. Then got together with some other fellas and used one of those little amps out of a Silvertone guitar case to drive into the Kalamazoo and then into 3 cheapo, mismatched 12" 8 ohm speakers wired in parallel (screw impedance matching) and mounted in an old pinball machine cabinet stood on end with a plywood baffle to hold them. I was still able to keep up with Mark the drumber and Carlos the bass player with this einstein magoo setup. Never melted anything down! We were pretty poor and had to make due with what we had. I even sang backup for a while into a drive-in movie speaker I had liberated from the drive-in, plugged into a Bell PA amp and similar speaker cabinet - also pinball cabinet set up. We had two, one for my amp, one for the PA. Hammered a curtain rod into the garage ceiling joists and duct tape the makeshift microphone to that at just the right height for me to step up and belt it out! We did everything except defy gravity!

Necessity is the mother of invention or something like that. 15-16 years old and bulletproof! And all the guitar work was quite dirty and fuzzy! Rock and Roll motherfuckers!!

[Greg_L]

Thanks! After I sold the Invader amp I kept the little Kalamazoo. Band was not working. Then got together with some other fellas and used one of those little amps out of a Silvertone guitar case to drive into the Kalamazoo and then into 3 cheapo, mismatched 12" 8 ohm speakers wired in parallel (screw impedance matching) and mounted in an old pinball machine cabinet stood on end with a plywood baffle to hold them. I was still able to keep up with Mark the drumber and Carlos the bass player with this einstein magoo setup. Never melted anything down! We were pretty poor and had to make due with what we had. I even sang backup for a while into a drive-in movie speaker I had liberated from the drive-in, plugged into a Bell PA amp and similar speaker cabinet - also pinball cabinet set up. We had two, one for my amp, one for the PA. Hammered a curtain rod into the garage ceiling joists and duct tape the makeshift microphone to that at just the right height for me to step up and belt it out! We did everything except defy gravity!

Necessity is the mother of invention or something like that. 15-16 years old and bulletproof! And all the guitar work was quite dirty and fuzzy! Rock and Roll motherfuckers!!

That's all very bad ass.

[Lt. Bob]

Thanks! After I sold the Invader amp I kept the little Kalamazoo. Band was not working. Then got together with some other fellas and used one of those little amps out of a Silvertone guitar case to drive into the Kalamazoo and then into 3 cheapo, mismatched 12" 8 ohm speakers wired in parallel (screw impedance matching) and mounted in an old pinball machine cabinet stood on end with a plywood baffle to hold them. I was still able to keep up with Mark the drumber and Carlos the bass player with this einstein magoo setup. Never melted anything down! We were pretty poor and had to make due with what we had. I even sang backup for a while into a drive-in movie speaker I had liberated from the drive-in, plugged into a Bell PA amp and similar speaker cabinet - also pinball cabinet set up. We had two, one for my amp, one for the PA. Hammered a curtain rod into the garage ceiling joists and duct tape the makeshift microphone to that at just the right height for me to step up and belt it out! We did everything except defy gravity!

Necessity is the mother of invention or something like that. 15-16 years old and bulletproof! And all the guitar work was quite dirty and fuzzy! Rock and Roll motherfuckers!!

that's how we did back then!!

That's why I always laugh at the "OMG there's lethal voltages in there and OMG you HAVE to bias every week and impedence matching is essential or you'll blow up everything around you!"

In the day we knew nothing and pretty much acted on that knowledge ...... lol

[Greg_L]

Well there is something to ignorance being bliss. I don't know if it's God or some kind of Karmic force of innocence, but you generally don't get busted doing things you're not supposed to do if you don't know you're not supposed to do it. But as soon as you know better, it'll get ya if you try it. It could be anything.

But related to this amp/speaker thing...I once accidentally connected an EQ stompbox to a speaker output instead of the fx loop. I wasn't looking at what I was doing, I just reached behind the amp and plugged the input of the pedal into the output of a 100w JCM 800. I was going "by feel" and I thought I was at the FX loop send jack. Nope. It was a speaker jack and within one nanosecond of a chord being played that poor little EQ pedal let the smoke out.

[rayc]

At one stage I had a Fender Bassman head from a local high school - my friend was the music master - the school didn't know if it worked or was any good. A friend came over to jam and didn't, at that stage, have an amp ..I had an old speaker from somewhere which we hung in a milk crate and hooked it up to the Bassman. No matching anything anywhere...didn't even think about it. It sounded great and a week later the fellow bought a Fender Twin Reverb - his 1st amp. I returned the amp to the high school with a thumbs up...I should've lied and said it was dead. Old public high school with lovely amp. I wonder if it's still there 37 years later.