Does this 2-mic setup work better than my previous 2-mic recordings?

[SweetDan]

I'm trying something different w/my approach to recording a drum kit with only 2 mics/channels (since that's what my interface has). The best of my previous attempts, posted in other threads here, were meh-ok, and the biggest problem was the sound of the snare (followed by a close second issue: the hats were too loud and bright). The snare sounded a bit distant, wasn't loud enough, and didn't have good presence. Playing the snare louder helped somewhat, but I want to try something new (short of buying a new interface with more channels, more mics, etc...someday).

Previous setup was a dynamic mic inside the kick drum, and a LDC overhead. Today's setup is: same mic inside the kick (a Sennheiser e602), and close miking the snare with an SM57 (about 2" up from and 1" outside the rim of the snare, and pointed midway between the batter head edge and center; the mic is nestled between and underneath the hats and the crash).

new2mic.mp3

new2mic_kick.mp3

new2mic_snare.mp3

(The above tracks don't have any processing. The following has some EQ on both the kick and snare tracks.)

new2mic_eq.mp3

The hats and other cymbals are certainly much less present than in my previous recordings. My question is: would this recording "work"? Is there enough of the cymbals? Thoughts?

[Greg_L]

The hats and other cymbals are certainly much less present than in my previous recordings. My question is: would this recording "work"? Is there enough of the cymbals? Thoughts?

I'm thinking that might work pretty well. It doesn't seem too bad at all to me. The only way to know for sure is to just lay some music tracks on top and ssee.

[vomitHatSteve]

I think it's pretty good.

But then I realized this weekend that I fundamentally hate ride cymbals. All you really need is kick and snare. And maybe some hat.

[Greg_L]

I think it's pretty good.

But then I realized this weekend that I fundamentally hate ride cymbals. All you really need is kick and snare. And maybe some hat.

You be crazy. If I had to get rid of my ride or hats it'd definitely be the hats.

[SweetDan]

...I realized this weekend that I fundamentally hate ride cymbals...

No Jazz for you, then!

[JD01]

I think it's pretty good.

But then I realized this weekend that I fundamentally hate ride cymbals. All you really need is kick and snare. And maybe some hat.

You be crazy. If I had to get rid of my ride or hats it'd definitely be the hats.

hats for verses, rides for choruses - settle into completely generic BR style poppish punk rock

[vomitHatSteve]

Hats for verses. Different hat pattern for choruses!

The ride is just the most annoying crash cymbal.

[liv_rong]

This sounds good to me, man. Not much different than my 7 mics lol.

Also, ride cymbals are great, just like hats. So many dynamic possibilities with each.

[SweetDan]

The hats and other cymbals are certainly much less present than in my previous recordings. My question is: would this recording "work"? Is there enough of the cymbals? Thoughts?

I'm thinking that might work pretty well. It doesn't seem too bad at all to me. The only way to know for sure is to just lay some music tracks on top and ssee.

So I had some time this evening to throw together a guide rhythm and bass track:

song_in_6_4-unmixedGuideTrack.mp3

and noodle a bit on some ideas for a melody.

song_in_6_4-guideTracks-soloIdeas.mp3

hats for verses, rides for choruses - settle into completely generic BR style poppish punk rock

...and that's exactly what I did.

[Greg_L]

So I had some time this evening to throw together a guide rhythm and bass track:

song_in_6_4-unmixedGuideTrack.mp3


and noodle a bit on some ideas for a melody.

song_in_6_4-guideTracks-soloIdeas.mp3

hats for verses, rides for choruses - settle into completely generic BR style poppish punk rock

...and that's exactly what I did.

Not too bad! Nice kick presence. The snare is a little boxy, but not bad. Maybe carve out some low mids from the snare and see what happens. You still want the meat, but get that donky sound out of it...maybe around 400hz-ish.

[SweetDan]

Not too bad! Nice kick presence. The snare is a little boxy, but not bad. Maybe carve out some low mids from the snare and see what happens. You still want the meat, but get that donky sound out of it...maybe around 400hz-ish.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be too busy tomorrow to get to it, but may try this out Sunday. (These clips aren't really even mixed properly, but it will be good to know some things I should listen for..."donky" - I like that description of how this sounds.)

[vomitHatSteve]

hats for verses, rides for choruses - settle into completely generic BR style poppish punk rock

...and that's exactly what I did.

Having spent all week listening to REM's Reveal on repeat, I only grow more convinced that ride cymbals are garbage, only fit for soft jazz!

It seems to blend pretty well with the bass and guit.

[SweetDan]

...Maybe carve out some low mids from the snare and see what happens. You still want the meat, but get that donky sound out of it...maybe around 400hz-ish.

My attempt to un-donkyfy the snare; snippets of drum bus first, without EQ on the snare track, then they "donky" EQ setting, then (hopefully) improved use of EQ:

drums_noSnareEq.mp3

drums_donkySnareEq.mp3

drums_unDonkyfiedSnareEq.mp3

And snippets of the "backing"/guide track:

backing_noSnareEq.mp3

backing_donkySnareEq.mp3

backing_unDonkyfiedSnareEq.mp3

Finally, the difference in the EQ curves (Donky version is on top and active in this screen shot, the non-donky is the second/inactive insert on the track):

donkyVsBetterSnareEQ.png

The micro-sized view here obviously doesn't show the number on the EQ settings, but you can see the obvious notch taken out in the second one; that was at 325Hz, and is 8-9 3-4 dB down. It sounded donkiest between 300-350, so I split the difference. Also, I boosted a tiny bit at 1-point-something-kHz, and the high-pass is steeper (since the snare mic had picked up some of the kick).

[Greg_L]

...Maybe carve out some low mids from the snare and see what happens. You still want the meat, but get that donky sound out of it...maybe around 400hz-ish.

My attempt to un-donkyfy the snare; snippets of drum bus first, without EQ on the snare track, then they "donky" EQ setting, then (hopefully) improved use of EQ:

drums_noSnareEq.mp3
drums_donkySnareEq.mp3
drums_unDonkyfiedSnareEq.mp3


And snippets of the "backing"/guide track:

backing_noSnareEq.mp3
backing_donkySnareEq.mp3
backing_unDonkyfiedSnareEq.mp3


Finally, the difference in the EQ curves (Donky version is on top and active in this screen shot, the non-donky is the second/inactive insert on the track):

donkyVsBetterSnareEQ.png


The micro-sized view here obviously doesn't show the number on the EQ settings, but you can see the obvious notch taken out in the second one; that was at 325Hz, and is 8-9 dB down. It sounded donkiest between 300-350, so I split the difference. Also, I boosted a tiny bit at 1-point-something-kHz, and the high-pass is steeper (since the snare mic had picked up some of the kick).

I'll have to check this out tomorrow. Shoot me a reminder if I forget. I'm minute-brained sometimes!

[Greg_L]

[mention]SweetDan[/mention] the "undonkey" is definitely an improvement! I think you could go even a little more with it.

[SweetDan]

Well, I didn't go further with the EQ on the close mics just yet [mention]Greg_L[/mention]...because it's NMD at my house! The new mic is a Behringer C-3, a cheap multi-pattern condensor, which I picked because it's cheap, and because I could try a bunch of fancy stuff...like a mid-side configuration. (And it should be a Christmas present, so I have to put it away for a few weeks, but before that, I had to make sure it was working and wasn't damaged in shipping, right? )

In the first clip below the mics are indeed in a mid-side configuration and are 4.5' - 5' from the drums. (Mics were actually behind me while playing; my room is not huge, and I've got a computer desk + bookshelf + amp + drums crammed in there, so the drums have to face a wall. I should post pics to that "show us your home studio" thread sometime...) I set the C-3 to the figure-8 pattern and it functioned as the "side(s)", and a Blue Spark (LDC) was the "mid" channel.

([mention]vomitHatSteve[/mention] - you're gonna hate it - the crash/ride are much more prominent now )

song_in_64_midSideMics.mp3

(To keep a semblance of a control group in this experiment, here's the same segment of the tune but as before, with the close kick/snare mics)

song_in_64_snareKickMics.mp3

I had to do quite a lot of EQ carving to get the mid/side mic tracks to have sort of the same feel and mix of low frequencies to highs. I also set up a send for parallel compression so that I could get back some of the "hefty" sound that gets lost when you move from a close-mic position to a room mic.

To me, the mid/side sounds a little wild and untamed; I'm sure part of that is the sound of the room. The recording with close mics feels cleaner, but maybe it's a little sterile in comparison. OTOH, there's something nice about the up-close-in-your-face kick and snare sound that's missing with the mid/side, since they're effectively room-mics.


---


I know one of some of you are out there thinking "Why doesn't SD quit screwing around with the 2-channel interface and go and buy one with more channels?" And you're probably right; I do have enough mics now. I'm still 1 mic stand and cable short. Someday...soon...I hope.

[Greg_L]

[mention]SweetDan[/mention] I've never been a fan of mid-side by itself. Unless you just have an amazing room I think it's kind of pointless. The close mics sound way better to me, but if you had more inputs you could bolster the close mics with the mid-side and that'd probably sound pretty big.

[vomitHatSteve]

So much ride!

[SweetDan]

...Mics were actually behind me while playing; my room is not huge, and I've got a computer desk + bookshelf + amp + drums crammed in there, so the drums have to face a wall. I should post pics to that "show us your home studio" thread sometime...

Photo of the room here --> https://therecordingrebels.com/viewtopi ... 448#p67448
Photo of the drums here --> https://therecordingrebels.com/viewtopi ... 450#p67450

[SweetDan]

Same song idea, same drum kit, some of the same mics...and now a new interface with more channels! (Finally?!) Building from where we left off...

Here are two new attempts. The kick & snare are the same: Sennheiser e602 inside the kick, SM57 slightly outside and a few inches above the snare rim, pointed towards the middle-ish of the batter head. With the new interface, I've now included 2 more LDC mics to the setup. The mics aren't new (and they aren't matching) - a Behringer C-3 (multi-pattern) and a Blue Spark (cardioid only).

First, I set up the C-3 in figure-8 mode and used it and the Spark in mid/side configuration, several feet from the drum kit. (Up thread a few posts I tried the same configuration, but with only 2 channels, so it was all "room" sound, and it wasn't pretty; this, of course, includes the kick & snare mics):

song_in_64_kick_snare_midSideRoom.mp3

song_in_64_kick_snare_midSideRoom_drumBus.mp3

Next I switched the C-3 to cardioid mode, and set it and the Spark up as overheads straight above the kit (along with the kick and snare mics). Sure, they're not identical, but for an experiment, it's ok:

song_in_64_kick_snare_overheads.mp3

song_in_64_kick_snare_overheads_drumBus.mp3

Neither of these experiments is mixed more than phase-checking and adjusting levels, but I'm liking both of these better than the 2-mic setups I tried before. What do you all think? Any preference between the two?