Stacking vox: Tune them? Yea or nay?

[Greg_L]

Same here. My harmonies are usually two takes each. and sitting them ontop of each other during playback is a good indicator of intune-ness. I'll do two of one key / arrangement, then two more of the other and then just blend them up and sit them next to the main vox. they are either going to work or they are not going to work. Currently what i have in my head for that stupid cover song for one part isn't coming out the way i want it and i am one day away from scrapping it and just pulling the pin on it.

Now that i say it out loud sounds dumb coming from me cause i'll will likely never again double up a guitar performance but i double up on layers of background vocals that typically get semi buried in a mix. Weird.

Do you ever actually feel the uneasiness of something being just a little off? I do. Even if I can't specifically hear it right off the bat, I feel something that seems uneasy and I know something is wrong somewhere. It can be a guitar that's a little out of tune, or bad intonation, or drum heads not ringing together, or vocals even slightly off. It's like it tugs at my brain when I hear it and I know something has gone awry somewhere. I'm like a dog tilting it's head when it hears something weird.

[WhiskeyJack]

Do you ever actually feel the uneasiness of something being just a little off? I do. Even if I can't specifically hear it right off the bat, I feel something that seems uneasy and I know something is wrong somewhere. It can be a guitar that's a little out of tune, or bad intonation, or drum heads not ringing together, or vocals even slightly off. It's like it tugs at my brain when I hear it and I know something has gone awry somewhere. I'm like a dog tilting it's head when it hears something weird.

HaHa Yes. I don't know that it get's as deep into my bones as it might get into yours. but i definitely would say that i experience that to some level. That feeling of uneasyness is real though. It's a sensation in the back of my neck. When i feel that i know something somewhere is rotten. Worst offender for me personally in my opinion is off time strums but still have the chord changes and timing on point. That right there is a large part of the phantom of my uneasyness. I always take a quick break when i think i "nail" something, listen back and sure enough there are off time strums by either large noticeable chunks of time or milliseconds. Everything is banging along nicely and i sort of nailed it but those little boogers in there can ruin a good day for me.

Going back to the level of uneasy in my bones, i only ever notice intonation on bass. Or across two different guitars. I can't listen to one guitar and really pick up on intonation unless it is just so bad it just sticks out like a sore thumb. On a bass yes. on a guitar no. I would hope everyone is like that with intonation though right?!

Vocals for me are whatever. I am pitchy. I know it. I hate it. I am ok with it. I can spend hours in there trying to hammer something home but there is always little bits all over the place where my pitch is just garbage. Usually coming into a line or trailing out. Usually. I get that feeling almost immediately as soon as it happens though but i'll keep going. If it is really bad i'll do a line over as needed but little bits i just leave. I have tried to use a mild autotune to fix those little vocal flubs but it never seems to do it inconspicuously enough to fool me. It might fool others. But i still get that uneasy feeling. So i just leave it.

Drums are 100% lost on me. I wouldn't know when toms ring out not together or an out of tune drum even if someone sat me down and was like, "this is an out of tune drum homey"

[Greg_L]

Drums are 100% lost on me. I wouldn't know when toms ring out not together or an out of tune drum even if someone sat me down and was like, "this is an out of tune drum homey"

Drums are one of those things for me where I really do have to just let go and say "fuck it". Drums aint like bass or vocals or even guitars where it's really easy to just punch something in. I really have to nail drums quickly because I'm not spending all day on that shit. It's easy to spend more time editing drums than actually playing them and I am not into that. If a tom is out of tune, I hear it, and it bugs me, and it will bug me until I die any time I hear it. But I can also live with it because I have to, and in reality pretty much no one will ever notice. And sometimes it's not even out of tune. Just a wonky thwack can make a drum ring funny. But I'm not redoing stuff for one wonky hit. That's life, that's being a human, that's rock and roll!

[WhiskeyJack]

Drums are 100% lost on me. I wouldn't know when toms ring out not together or an out of tune drum even if someone sat me down and was like, "this is an out of tune drum homey"

Drums are one of those things for me where I really do have to just let go and say "fuck it". Drums aint like bass or vocals or even guitars where it's really easy to just punch something in. I really have to nail drums quickly because I'm not spending all day on that shit. It's easy to spend more time editing drums than actually playing them and I am not into that. If a tom is out of tune, I hear it, and it bugs me, and it will bug me until I die any time I hear it. But I can also live with it because I have to, and in reality pretty much no one will ever notice. And sometimes it's not even out of tune. Just a wonky thwack can make a drum ring funny. But I'm not redoing stuff for one wonky hit. That's life, that's being a human, that's rock and roll!

makes 100% sense. i remember way way back there was this like rock band we used to play with all the itme and i remember they hired a "producer" to sit in on the album recordings, and that guy put that drummer through the ringer. it was Joshes first time playing to a click and trying to play thrugh overdubs to get a fixed snare hit and he was shook. Like he came out of that session a changed man. not for the better either. he found it daunting and a huge waste of time and money. Like you said one wongo hit on the hi hats is livable. Like josh was an excellent drummer but the hoops this guy had him jump though for the sake of a hit here and hit there really demoralized him. Very few issues weren't even timing farts, it was just this guy not liking the way josh hit whatever piece of his kit. It also created a lot of resentment in that band because he ate so much of their tiny studio budget it left little time for some of the other stuff. luckily they were well rehearsed and it sounded good. Still some sour bitter feeling though after. I felt bad for them regardless. What a shitty experience.

[Greg_L]

makes 100% sense. i remember way way back there was this like rock band we used to play with all the itme and i remember they hired a "producer" to sit in on the album recordings, and that guy put that drummer through the ringer. it was Joshes first time playing to a click and trying to play thrugh overdubs to get a fixed snare hit and he was shook. Like he came out of that session a changed man. not for the better either. he found it daunting and a huge waste of time and money. Like you said one wongo hit on the hi hats is livable. Like josh was an excellent drummer but the hoops this guy had him jump though for the sake of a hit here and hit there really demoralized him. Very few issues weren't even timing farts, it was just this guy not liking the way josh hit whatever piece of his kit. It also created a lot of resentment in that band because he ate so much of their tiny studio budget it left little time for some of the other stuff. luckily they were well rehearsed and it sounded good. Still some sour bitter feeling though after. I felt bad for them regardless. What a shitty experience.

I'll never be in a position where I'll have to hire a producer from the outside, and if I am, it'll be the worst experience of both of our lives. I'd keep that money for ourselves and self-produce.

I hate that "producers" even exist.

[WhiskeyJack]

I'll never be in a position where I'll have to hire a producer from the outside, and if I am, it'll be the worst experience of both of our lives. I'd keep that money for ourselves and self-produce.

I hate that "producers" even exist.

Ditto that. there is no real need of them. I mean if you are a generic pop tart with no real talent other than looking good or a boy band then yea, you are likely going to need to pay someone to help you get some of that radio cheese. But that might be a different conversation.

[vomitHatSteve]

Jesus man. I have been messing around for a week just trying to to find a cohesive 2 part harmony. So are all 10 parts in different keys or whatever? or is it like a few tracks of the same key or what?

It's a three part that I stretched as far as I could get it in either direction. Nothing complicated, just broad.

If a tom is out of tune, I hear it, and it bugs me, and it will bug me until I die any time I hear it. But I can also live with it because I have to

re: producers. I think the role of "producer" is important in that it's good for a project to have someone who's in charge. Someone who has the broad vision and makes the final decisions.
But yeah, I don't see much value in bringing in someone outside the band most of the time. Unless the band themselves can't agree on anything, or they want to have someone with completely different ideas help them come up with something brand new outside their wheelhouse; there ought to be someone in most bands who can handle it.

[Greg_L]

re: producers. I think the role of "producer" is important in that it's good for a project to have someone who's in charge. Someone who has the broad vision and makes the final decisions.
But yeah, I don't see much value in bringing in someone outside the band most of the time. Unless the band themselves can't agree on anything, or they want to have someone with completely different ideas help them come up with something brand new outside their wheelhouse; there ought to be someone in most bands who can handle it.

Right, I agree. The job of making decisions is important. I think someone involved with the band should do that. A member, the manager, hell a fucking roadie could do it.

[vomitHatSteve]

Depending on the band, yeah.

If you're on the road often enough to need roadies, yeah; they probably know your sound well enough to figure out how to achieve it in the studio.

Of course, the less experienced your producer is, the better your engineer will need to be.

[Greg_L]

Engineers are vital
Producers....meh

[vomitHatSteve]

To be fair, we're all home-recorders here, so... we're both for most of these projects.

[Greg_L]

To be fair, we're all home-recorders here, so... we're both for most of these projects.

Of course. We have to engineer and "produce" our own stuff.

But take your music, for example. Your music has a very specific, quirky style. It's very unique. It should be self-produced. Could an outside producer really come in and make it better? It would have to be someone that is already very familiar with your work.

[musicturtle]

When I stack bg vox I usually bus them all together and compress that track to glue them together. If I want them a bit thicker I add a bit of chorus to that track.

I never use auto tune, but I understand the business of music is not all about music. Appearance matters as much or more now and if they find someone who can sing okay but really looks the part, they are going to try and make it work any way possible.

Producers to me are like head coaches of a football team. You want everyone on a team or in a band to be really concentrating on their part to perform at the highest level they can. Same with a assistant coach and an engineer. You want your offensive coordinator focused on running the offense and your engineer you want focused on getting the sound to "tape" as best he/she can. A producer is someone who has the whole picture in their mind. Now if you use a producer, you have to be willing to trust them and release some of the artistic responsibility to them. Not everyone wants or can do that.

[Greg_L]

Now if you use a producer, you have to be willing to trust them and release some of the artistic responsibility to them. Not everyone wants or can do that.

That's my main #1 hangup with producers. I can't let go of my own creation. My music isn't even special or especially unique, but it's mine. I'll be damned if some outside shmoe is gonna tell me to change anything about it.

But I'm also not in the position of having hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of dollars on the line. I might easily throw my integrity away for a chunk of cash.

[musicturtle]

That's my main #1 hangup with producers. I can't let go of my own creation. My music isn't even special or especially unique, but it's mine. I'll be damned if some outside shmoe is gonna tell me to change anything about it.

But I'm also not in the position of having hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of dollars on the line. I might easily throw my integrity away for a chunk of cash.

Exactly. I have been doing this long enough(music in general that is) that I trust my ears. I respect other's opinions, but my ears have the final say.

[vomitHatSteve]

But take your music, for example. Your music has a very specific, quirky style. It's very unique. It should be self-produced. Could an outside producer really come in and make it better? It would have to be someone that is already very familiar with your work.

Yeah, unless I wanted to do a one-off project where I let someone else affect the style.

I did that once, but I still mixed and mastered it, so it didn't deviate much from my normal style. Mostly it just meant better guitar tone and playing.

[vomitHatSteve]

Alright, here's my attempt at it:

29 vocal takes with various panning across 10 parts and two vocalists

A - untuned

tune test 2.mp3

B - Reaper's default auto-tuning (with key) on each individual track.

tune test 1.mp3

[JD01]

Alright, here's my attempt at it:

29 vocal takes with various panning across 10 parts and two vocalists

There's not that much difference between them which probably says more about your pitch than anything.
I can just hear a slight tuning artifact on the 2nd pass on the 2nd one.

What rate do you have ReaTune set to?
Also, I never use the auto version - I always use manual when I'm working things out.

[vomitHatSteve]

Yeah, I thought about trying to mess with things to get it to artifact harder. Do it out of pitch or something, but I just didn't want to put that much effort in.

Even copy-pasting the same tuning effect to all the channels was way more effort than seemed worth it.