Sound Check: guitar tones and live drums

[SweetDan]

Here's something I was messing around with today, and if you all don't mind, I'd like feedback on how the guitar and drums sound.

First, the quick mix of the whole thing (I think I'll call this tune "Away For Your Birthday"...if I finish it):

awayForYourBirthday_quickMix.mp3

Then snippets of the parts in question; first, the drums:

awayForYourBirthday_drumBus.mp3

awayForYourBirthday_overheadCondensor.mp3

awayForYourBirthday_kickDynamic.mp3

(The drums were recorded with 2 mics: a condenser on the overhead, 1.5 stick lengths away from and over the upper part of the snare, and angled slightly towards the left to roughly balance the crash/ride cymbals; and a dynamic kick drum mic, inside the drum.)

Here's the rhythm guitar:

awayForYourBirthday_guitarBus.mp3

awayForYourBirthday_gtrCondensorConeEdge.mp3

awayForYourBirthday_gtrSm57DustcapConeSeam.mp3

(The guitar was recorded was a single take but recorded with 2 mics: a condensor (same as the drum OH - a Blue "Spark") close to the grille over the outer edge of the cone; and an SM57, also close to the grille, and just inside the dustcap/cone seam (one of the wide dustcaps on the speaker).

[Greg_L]

I really like the bones of the song. Very 50s-ish, and that's good to me.

Couple things I think could be better.

First off, your drumming and drum sounds have improved, so good job there. I know it's tough with only two mics but you're getting better. Having said that, you need to keep going. I think the hats and cymbals are too overpowering in the single overhead. Not by much, but the hats are more pronounced than the snare. I'm thinking that should almost never happen. There are a few ways you can fix that: 1) hit the tins softer and the snare harder. This is just a technique thing and costs no money. 2) Keep moving the overhead around until you get more snare and less cymbals. Try the overhead mic behind you, looking over your shoulder towards the snare. It's called an overhead, but it doesn't have to literally be right over the top of everything. 3) Get drier, quieter cymbals. Probably not the cheapest option. Lol.

For the guitar, I think it's a little bright for this sparse song. The crunch in the top end is brittle. If you're gonna add a bunch more stuff, fine, but if this is the only rhythm track then I think it's too bright. You probably could cut the 57 track out all together and just roll with the condenser track. And give it some reverb! A big lush spring reverb on the guitar would sound awesome on this IMO.

[SweetDan]

Thanks!

I think the hats and cymbals are too overpowering in the single overhead. Not by much, but the hats are more pronounced than the snare. I'm thinking that should almost never happen. There are a few ways you can fix that: 1) hit the tins softer and the snare harder. This is just a technique thing and costs no money. 2) Keep moving the overhead around until you get more snare and less cymbals. Try the overhead mic behind you, looking over your shoulder towards the snare. It's called an overhead, but it doesn't have to literally be right over the top of everything. 3) Get drier, quieter cymbals. Probably not the cheapest option. Lol.

Oh, there's so many more ways I could spend more money! You didn't mention: 4) buying more mics (so I can mic the snare up close, and add a 2nd overhead - yay, stereo!), which would lead to buying a new interface (because what I have now has only two channels), cables, and mic stands.

But to avoid spending more $$, I'll keep trying to get better at implementing the technique and mic positioning ideas. In fact, I listened to these again this morning, and noticed the same thing you did about the cymbals overpowering the snare (especially the hats). I recall in the "De-fluffing a kick drum" thread I had positioned the overhead closer to my shoulder and not directly over the snare, which balanced things out better as well as gave the snare a bit more brightness. (The snare is too dark here.)

[Greg_L]

Oh, there's so many more ways I could spend more money! You didn't mention: 4) buying more mics (so I can mic the snare up close, and add a 2nd overhead - yay, stereo!), which would lead to buying a new interface (because what I have now has only two channels), cables, and mic stands.

But to avoid spending more $$, I'll keep trying to get better at implementing the technique and mic positioning ideas. In fact, I listened to these again this morning, and noticed the same thing you did about the cymbals overpowering the snare (especially the hats). I recall in the "De-fluffing a kick drum" thread I had positioned the overhead closer to my shoulder and not directly over the snare, which balanced things out better as well as gave the snare a bit more brightness. (The snare is too dark here.)

Speaking of the kick, it is much better, so good going on that.

Another thing you could try is just lower the hats if they're not too low already and raise the snare a little. You're not so seasoned and stuck in your ways that you can't experiment a little and not have it screw you all up.

[JD01]

But to avoid spending more $$, I'll keep trying to get better at implementing the technique and mic positioning ideas.

Dan, I'll have a proper listen later even though Greg is way more qualified than me to help you here.

But what you said above is the best advice you can give yourself. Work like fuck on the simple setup you've got, learn what every little adjustment does and how if effects your sound. When you do upgrade your interface and get 4 Or more mics all of this practice you've had at listening carefully and improving will pay dividends.

[SweetDan]

Some new tracks to listen to...I played around with trying to get a better sound in the overhead drum mic.

I changed a few things: lowering the height of the hats, re-positioning the OH mic over my shoulder instead of over the drum set, tuning the snare a bit higher, and reducing the amount of muting on the snare (there wasn't much; 1 piece of moon-gel down to 1/2 piece). All along I'd been trying not to overdo my playing on the hats, and trying to really smack the snare, so I probably played this about the same as in the previous mix.

I hear a slight improvement -- the snare is a touch brighter and the hats are a touch less prominent -- but in the mix the improvement is not as much as I'd hoped. Anyway, give these new tracks a whirl:

awayForYourBirthday_quickMix2.mp3

awayForYourBirthday_drumBus2.mp3

awayForYourBirthday_overhead2.mp3

awayForYourBirthday_kick2.mp3

[Tadpui]

Being such a neophyte at miking drums, I'll have to defer to the experts around here as far as suggestions. I like that kick sound though!

[rayc]

The drum bus sounds pretty good but in the mix it does sound brighter than the bus.
Cool track.

[Greg_L]

It's strange how much brighter and clearer the hats and ride come through compared to the snare.

What kind of EQ/compression do you have going on, if any?

[SweetDan]

For the latest quick mix:

- Overhead: EQ - roll off the bass, little boost ~2k, little shelf (boost) above 5k; Comp - pretty mild (2:1), fast attack, slow release, little bit of make-up gain
- Kick: EQ: roll off sub-bass, scoop out the cardboard in the middle, and boost a bit ~2-3k for more beater click (though it's not really clicky)
- Drum Bus: notch out a bit of wonkiness ~700-800, and smoothly scoop out a smidge of the harshness in the cymbals

mix2_oh_kick_drumBus.jpg

I'm glad you asked, however; when I started to review the compressor settings on the overhead, I'm guessing a fast attack (0.14ms!) could be killing the initial attack of the snare. I've read and heard examples of how a slow attack on the snare can work better, and I think I should play with that setting.

(And I didn't mention up thread, but I was lazy and didn't turn off the plugins when I exported the single- or bus-tracks, so all the eq/comp/reverb is in effect.)

[SweetDan]

Much more snare attack when the comp on the overheads isn't so fast:

awayForYourBirthday_mix2_slowOhComp.mp3

Here are the new-and-improved settings:

slowerOhComp.jpg

[JD01]

Dan, I've had a listen to these now.
Seems like you're making progress.

Although your ride sounds really loud in the last one. I actually quite like your snare sound.

[Greg_L]

Much more snare attack when the comp on the overheads isn't so fast:

awayForYourBirthday_mix2_slowOhComp.mp3



Here are the new-and-improved settings:

slowerOhComp.jpg

Oh yeah, the snare pops a lot better. Much improved. You made another step forward.

The hats and ride ping sound more natural now too. I thought it sounded like a compressor problem at first. The ride ping on the other tracks gave it away.

[WhiskeyJack]

This thread is awesome. I think becasue the rarity of live drums in songs these days it is really remarkable to see how this song is developing using two mics. Awesome job [mention]SweetDan[/mention] The last track is sounding really really good. It still amazes me that a compressor can make a track go from the previous one to the latter one. It's very easy to let something get away on you with anything these days. This is coming along really great for a two mic recording. My hats off to you for playing real drums. The song is cool too SD can't wait to hear this when it is all wrapped up reminds me of the enchantment under the sea school dance scene from the first back to the future move for whatever reason. I really dig it.

One thing as a non drummer i am taking away from this thread is that SD is changing his instrument set up and and how he is playing to also work towards a good mix. That is really cool.