Acoustic drums with triggers

[paulman]

In the last couple of years I've gone from "Well, this e-kit isn't perfect, but it's better than any method of recording drums I've ever had before" to "I can't do shit on these clumsy pads!"

So what I'm thinking about doing is getting an inexpensive acoustic drumset, and using MIDI triggers with it. My question is, are there triggers that are sensitive enough to record accurate velocity, or are they used more as a simple enhancement to live acoustic drums? I've been researching triggers, but I haven't read anything that gives me confidence that there is a trigger with the sensitivity I need. Enough to accurately record rolls and things like that.

I could just go for a better e-kit with a more realistic feel, but I'm not sure how real they get. Also, I'd like to have the option of recording acoustic drums if I wanted to, but I want to have full ability with playing MIDI instruments. Basically, I'm a good enough drummer to need real heads for what I do, but not good enough to go 100% acoustic and lose the ability to edit when I need to. And of course I have samples that are way better than any acoustic drumset I could afford.

[Greg_L]

In the last couple of years I've gone from "Well, this e-kit isn't perfect, but it's better than any method of recording drums I've ever had before" to "I can't do shit on these clumsy pads!"

So what I'm thinking about doing is getting an inexpensive acoustic drumset, and using MIDI triggers with it. My question is, are there triggers that are sensitive enough to record accurate velocity, or are they used more as a simple enhancement to live acoustic drums? I've been researching triggers, but I haven't read anything that gives me confidence that there is a trigger with the sensitivity I need. Enough to accurately record rolls and things like that.

I could just go for a better e-kit with a more realistic feel, but I'm not sure how real they get. Also, I'd like to have the option of recording acoustic drums if I wanted to, but I want to have full ability with playing MIDI instruments. Basically, I'm a good enough drummer to need real heads for what I do, but not good enough to go 100% acoustic and lose the ability to edit when I need to. And of course I have samples that are way better than any acoustic drumset I could afford.

High end triggers are adjustable and sensitive enough to do whatever you wanna do.

Pearl makes a mesh head acoustic kit that's 100% electronic, but it looks and feels like a real drum set. And if you want, you can swap out the mesh heads for real heads and have a real drum kit.

[paulman]

High end triggers are adjustable and sensitive enough to do whatever you wanna do.

Pearl makes a mesh head acoustic kit that's 100% electronic, but it looks and feels like a real drum set. And if you want, you can swap out the mesh heads for real heads and have a real drum kit.

Ok, cool. I'd love the Pearl kit, but I'm gonna have to go cheaper than that this time around, at least for the drums themselves. I'll be looking for a used set. I might end up paying more for the triggers than the drums. I've been looking at ddrum triggers, but I'm afraid to (sorry for this) "pull the trigger" because none of their product descriptions or reviews make it explicit to me that it is exactly the model I'm looking for.

Come to think of it, I have a close friend who has a really nice Pearl set that he can't set up in his house until he either gets a bigger house or his two year-old moves out. He left it with me years ago for several months, maybe he'll do it again.

[Farview]

I have a bunch of Ddrum triggers that I might be looking to get rid of. The trick to making them work is playing with the parameters on the drum brain. After that, it's up to the sample set you are using to have enough velocities to convincingly mimic what you are playing.

[JD01]

Sounds like you might need to go to a music shop and take your laptop to try things out, Paulman!

I only bring it up 'cos I've been looking at low to mid level e-kits (mesh heads) recently but I know that before I buy one I'll want to try them out with my laptop and seeing how it all works getting them hooked up.

[paulman]

I have a bunch of Ddrum triggers that I might be looking to get rid of. The trick to making them work is playing with the parameters on the drum brain. After that, it's up to the sample set you are using to have enough velocities to convincingly mimic what you are playing.

I always wonder if maybe I just tweaked the parameters on my current kit's brain if it would solve a lot of my issues, but I've never been able to find those tweaks. Pretty sure it's just the cheap pads. Which model of Ddrum triggers do you have?

[paulman]

Sounds like you might need to go to a music shop and take your laptop to try things out, Paulman!

I only bring it up 'cos I've been looking at low to mid level e-kits (mesh heads) recently but I know that before I buy one I'll want to try them out with my laptop and seeing how it all works getting them hooked up.

You mean I actually have to go to the store? That's so 90's. What a quaint idea. I may have to try it.

[JD01]

Yup!

[Farview]

I have a bunch of Ddrum triggers that I might be looking to get rid of. The trick to making them work is playing with the parameters on the drum brain. After that, it's up to the sample set you are using to have enough velocities to convincingly mimic what you are playing.

I always wonder if maybe I just tweaked the parameters on my current kit's brain if it would solve a lot of my issues, but I've never been able to find those tweaks. Pretty sure it's just the cheap pads. Which model of Ddrum triggers do you have?

I can't remember, but they were the top of the line 10 years ago. I'll have to look at them next time I'm home. They are the big square ones.

[liv_rong]

I am so confused. What about the cymbals? Also, I cant help but ask, if you have the ability to play acoustic drums without bothering people, why not just record real drums?

[paulman]

I am so confused. What about the cymbals? Also, I cant help but ask, if you have the ability to play acoustic drums without bothering people, why not just record real drums?

I want to be able to do both. As far as cymbals, that's part of my original question. Are there cymbal triggers that are worth a damn? I'm guessing from your question that you would say no.

[liv_rong]

I am so confused. What about the cymbals? Also, I cant help but ask, if you have the ability to play acoustic drums without bothering people, why not just record real drums?

I want to be able to do both. As far as cymbals, that's part of my original question. Are there cymbal triggers that are worth a damn? I'm guessing from your question that you would say no.

I see. I don’t know anything about triggers. But, for triggers for cymbals or regular electrokit cymbals, I would say no, they all must suck lol. I can coax so many different sounds and tones out of a cymbal and I do t see how I could do it electronically. For just a crash sound, sure. And maybe even some dynamically different sounding strikes, but that’s about it.

You could use your acoustic drums with triggers for the drums and then add the cymbal sounds later?

[Farview]

Just use real cymbals and two mics to record them.
Or, just use the cymbal pads from an electronic kit.

[paulman]

I see. I don’t know anything about triggers. But, for triggers for cymbals or regular electrokit cymbals, I would say no, they all must suck lol. I can coax so many different sounds and tones out of a cymbal and I do t see how I could do it electronically. For just a crash sound, sure. And maybe even some dynamically different sounding strikes, but that’s about it.

You could use your acoustic drums with triggers for the drums and then add the cymbal sounds later?

So I'm finding out that options for cymbals are pretty limited compared to drums. I don't see triggers that can attach to regular cymbals, which I had assumed existed just like drum triggers. I have found triggers that attach to low volume cymbals, and they seem really good. The problem is, I wouldn't be able to record real drums/cymbals simultaneously with the triggers. It would be a choice between setting up the real cymbals and recording real drums, or setting up the triggers and going MIDI only. Which is acceptable if that's all I can get, I just like to have options.

Anyway, these are the triggers I found. This video uses a Zildjian hi hat, but Magnatrack makes their own cymbals too.

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-8II3ekm0A[/BBvideo]

And the website: https://www.magnatrack.com/

I could also just get e-cymbals that have a better playing surface than my current ones.

[paulman]

Just use real cymbals and two mics to record them.

This is another consideration, and the only reason I don't just say "But then I wouldn't have the cymbals as MIDI information" is because we all know cymbals are the worst thing about fake drums. So it might be for the best if I just recorded real cymbals. But if I can get it to work well and sound good with triggers, then that is what I want to do.

[Farview]

There were peizo triggers that you could stick to your cymbals, but since cymbals move and spin so much, the cables would always break. They also made the cymbal sound like crap acoustically.

There were a couple other attempts to trigger from real cymbals, but they all had problems of one sort or another. Also, triggering cymbal samples still sounds like cymbal samples, so there is no advantage over standard electronic cymbals. (which work better anyway)

[paulman]

There were peizo triggers that you could stick to your cymbals, but since cymbals move and spin so much, the cables would always break. They also made the cymbal sound like crap acoustically.

There were a couple other attempts to trigger from real cymbals, but they all had problems of one sort or another. Also, triggering cymbal samples still sounds like cymbal samples, so there is no advantage over standard electronic cymbals. (which work better anyway)

For me, the advantage would be playing a real cymbal. But if the electronic cymbal has a realistic feel, then I'm all for it. I'm gonna have to take JD's advice and just go try some stuff out.

[JD01]

I'm gonna have to take JD's advice and just go try some stuff out.

My reasoning for getting an E-Kit is mainly down to me needing a lot of practice though and I don't want to be annoying by practising on a real kit.

Point still stands though, try shit out!

[paulman]

I'm gonna have to take JD's advice and just go try some stuff out.

My reasoning for getting an E-Kit is mainly down to me needing a lot of practice though and I don't want to be annoying by practising on a real kit.

Point still stands though, try shit out!

I am likely about to move into a house, by myself. So I'm finally going to have that ideal situation where I have no roommates, and no neighbors on the other side of the walls, ceiling, or floor. I'm also going to finally get my Marshall fixed so I don't have to do all this digital modeling bullshit anymore.

My advice on using an e-kit for practice is this: Any kit, even a cheap one like mine, is good for practicing timing and coordination and all that. But if you are going to practice rudiments, you need something with a better surface than what mine has (it's a Behringer, BTW, their second cheapest model). Even without rudiments, my set just doesn't accurately pick up my dynamics, no matter how much I tweak the parameters. On one hand, this may not matter much to you if you're just using them for practice. However, the lack of sensitivity can make you think your playing is worse than it is. When I recorded Radiohead's "Like Spinning Plates" a couple of years ago, I thought my dynamic control on piano was horrible. Turns out my keyboard is notorious for throwing out nearly random velocities. I only recently found this out. I absolutely hate editing MIDI unless it's just occasional tweaks, so it's time to upgrade my drum and keyboard situations.

My point is, even though you just want an e-kit for practice, you probably want something better than the cheapest kits available. Maybe you are already thinking along those lines, but I just thought I'd share my experiences with you in case they help.

[JD01]

Yeah, I'm planning on spending about a grand to get decent mesh heads with a good snare.