Drum Tracks

[Bill L]

As you guys know, I've been tracking (or at least trying to) track my band and I've been butting heads with one of the guys. I still think these drums need some attention on the low end (especially the kick and floor tom). Of course, I'm focused on that and may be missing something else so I was hoping to get some input from y'all. Any comments would be appreciated. I have thick skin so please be honest. I want this recording to sound as high end as possible (with the equipment I have and other road blocks I'll be encountering). Thank you all in advance.

Rash Day 2 Mix 1 no vocals.mp3

[Bill L]

And here's the other tune , again no vocals.

Nancy Day 1 Mix.mp3

[Greg_L]

Well, first off the kick is pretty bad. It's buried and that's probably a good thing because it sounds rough. Too fluffy, bouncy, boomy, all the things you don't want in a kick track. It sounds like a marching band bass drum. Great for marching bands, not great for rock mixes.

The snare is a really subjective thing. I can hear this snare working in these mixes, but it might be too buzzy. A little more tightness from the drum itself might be a good thing. What's the overhead setup on "Nancy"? I hear the hat to the right on "Rash", but it's centered hard on Nancy. It sounds like a lot of hi hat coming through the snare track.

Speaking of Nancy....that song sounds a lot like Personality Crisis! Great song, btw.

Honestly, I hate to say it, but the kick and snare are what need to be the best. The rest is important but less significant. Get the kick and snare right first.

[Bill L]

Well, first off the kick is pretty bad. It's buried and that's probably a good thing because it sounds rough. Too fluffy, bouncy, boomy, all the things you don't want in a kick track. It sounds like a marching band bass drum. Great for marching bands, not great for rock mixes.

The snare is a really subjective thing. I can hear this snare working in these mixes, but it might be too buzzy. A little more tightness from the drum itself might be a good thing. What's the overhead setup on "Nancy"? I hear the hat to the right on "Rash", but it's centered hard on Nancy. It sounds like a lot of hi hat coming through the snare track.

Speaking of Nancy....that song sounds a lot like Personality Crisis! Great song, btw.

Honestly, I hate to say it, but the kick and snare are what need to be the best. The rest is important but less significant. Get the kick and snare right first.

Thanks Greg. Pretty much what I expected to hear. The kick is very boomy and I think it's the resonate head. I'm also getting the same from the floor tom and without a lot of major EQ'ing they both sound bad. My plan was to deaden both resonate heads and see what happens tonight.

As far as the high hat, it looks like I panned it on Rash but not on Nancy. My mic's are set up thusly: kick, snare, rack tom, floor tom, overheads left and right (equidistant from the center of the snare), a condenser on the hats alone and a bottom snare mic (which is only slightly added to the mix and may be contributing to the buzziness). I'm using a Beta 52 on the kick and the kick drum mic from a Digital Reference drum mic package on the floor tom. I'm thinking of changing that mic to the regular tom mic to minimize how much low end gets hyped (might not be the right word). On Nancy, I muted the rack and floor tom tracks as he doesn't even use them in the song and I didn't want any bleed to effect the rest of the track. Considering the room, and the impatience I'm dealing with from one of the guys, I think we have a pretty decent start to getting a good and usable sound.

I agree that kick and snare should be what sounds best which why I'm thankful that you gave me your input. Without trying to blow smoke up your ass, it's you I'm trying to "impress" regarding the drums. I've stated to the band that regardless of how everything else sounds on the tracks, if we don't start with great sounding drum tracks we'll never have a great sounding demo. As far as the song goes, Nancy is an old school style 3 chord romp that sounds way better with the whole band playing it. As we go a bit further, and assuming I haven't thrown in the towel and quit, I'll upload some more so you can hear the whole tune.

Thanks again for taking the time to listen and comment. Your intuition and knowledge in this area is well beyond my abilities and I really appreciate it. And I know that between my ears and the input from all of you guys I'll be able to make a really great demo.

[Bill L]

Oh and then I just saw this and it made me laugh.

Shit snare.jpg

[rayc]

I bow to both of you and simply read for my own edification.

[Greg_L]

Oh and then I just saw this and it made me laugh.


Shit snare.jpg

LOL!


Don't worry about it too much. Drums are the hardest shit to record....by far. That's why hardly anyone does it anymore.

For the kick, loosen the batter head so it's just barely past wrinkling. Loosen it until it wrinkles, then evenly bring it up just so the wrinkles disappear. That's a good starting point for a deep tight thud. You might not even need a drum key for this. I bet you can do it with finger power only. It doesn't take much. Then tune the resonant head to taste. Or maybe even take it off. The idea is a tight thud with some body. If you can't get the mic inside the drum, mic the batter side where the beater hits. Make sure the pedal is not squeaky if you do this. Sometimes you have to do things for recording drums that you wouldn't normally do live. If your drummer balks at any of this, tell him to STFU because Greg fucking said to fucking do it.

The rest, like the snare bottom mic, is just mix stuff. Use however much of it you need. Also play with flipping the phase on tracks in relation to the overheads. That sometimes yields great results on certain pieces. The phase flipping between snare top, snare bottom, and overheads can give wild differences. Don't flip the overheads, just the individual tracks that also get picked up in the overheads. And sometimes you can bus the snare top and bottom together and compress them as one. That gives a very fat and lively snare sound. Might be just right.

Hi hat mics....I'd suggest you get as much of the hats from the overheads that you can, then just barely bring in the hats track to bolster what you already have. Listen for panning. Wherever the hats fall in the overhead stereo spread, put the hi hat track there too.

If the toms are too boomy, just gate them. Gate the toms so the hits pop through and tailor the gate's closing speed so it doesn't cut off too fast. I'd personally rather gate toms than have dead choked toms that don't need gates.

[Ausrock]

I haven't tracked drums for a long time but when I did, I'd get the drummer to tune his kit then play, I'd be down on my hands and knees moving around listening for the sweet spots........probably didn't do much for my hearing Actually did the same for both acoustic and electric guitars.

Placing o/heads equi-distant from the snare is good but it can be just as important to have them equi from the "batter point" of the kick........(memory's a bit rusty and this may be a bit long winded).....I used two loooonnnngggg pieces of string, taped the ends of each one to the centre of the snare and the centre of the kick batter head making sure that when I brought them together centred over the kit, they were the same length, then stuck a piece of tape at the "meeting point" on each string, kick the drum throne out of the way and standing in it's place and keeping hold of this "marker' tape I'd start moving my hands outwards. The idea is that if you have to move away from the "marker" on one string, you do the same on the other, also you may have to either lengthen or shorten the strings to find an optimal position for the o/heads.........worked for me every time.

[Bill L]

Well, sometimes you just have to laugh. I walked into where we are tracking and the drums have been moved. Thankfully, overall it wasn't a bad thing to do, it just took us a lot of time for the drummer to adjust his kit and then I had to redo all the mic positions (made much more difficult by the fact that one of the guys insists on tying all of his cables as he's a neat freak with zero forethought for the possibility that something may have to be moved ). I still think the kick and floor tom are boomy but using the gates has helped. When we start getting usable takes (most likely tomorrow night) we'll start adding actual takes rather than scratch tracks. So keeping that in mind, here's a sample of the difference so feel free to tear it apart*. As I want this to end up sounding as "professional" as possible. One of the guys has recommended we go into a "real" studio because he thinks whatever we (more likely me) do now will always sound "local" and not "professional". I vehemently disagree, as do a couple of the others in the band. So my goal, regardless of whether or not this band uses these tracks for anything, is to get as professional a sounding recording that I can.

* The drums, acoustic, vocal and guitar were done together, then the bass track was added. I did the slide yesterday using my Vox Tone Lab ST so that tone sounds like shit. The other guitar was a Tele through the Matchless clone that the guitar player built.

Matchless clone:

Matchless Clone.jpg

Here's the song:

57 Nomad Day 1 Mix 2 Edited.mp3

And here's about 45 secs of the drums only:

57 Nomad Day 1 Drums Only Edited.mp3

[Bill L]

I haven't tracked drums for a long time but when I did, I'd get the drummer to tune his kit then play, I'd be down on my hands and knees moving around listening for the sweet spots........probably didn't do much for my hearing Actually did the same for both acoustic and electric guitars.

Placing o/heads equi-distant from the snare is good but it can be just as important to have them equi from the "batter point" of the kick........(memory's a bit rusty and this may be a bit long winded).....I used two loooonnnngggg pieces of string, taped the ends of each one to the centre of the snare and the centre of the kick batter head making sure that when I brought them together centred over the kit, they were the same length, then stuck a piece of tape at the "meeting point" on each string, kick the drum throne out of the way and standing in it's place and keeping hold of this "marker' tape I'd start moving my hands outwards. The idea is that if you have to move away from the "marker" on one string, you do the same on the other, also you may have to either lengthen or shorten the strings to find an optimal position for the o/heads.........worked for me every time.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll be sure to re read this when we track tomorrow night. I appreciate you taking the time. Hopefully this can be instructive for all of us.

Ray, if you have anything questions, please chime right in!

[Greg_L]

The kick is still a problem, as you already know. It's got no punch.
The snare could be tuned better. It's boxy and dull.
Toms sound good.

Again, the kick and snare need to drive the thing, and neither has enough personality on their own to stand out. Notice they get kind of lost in the full mix. The overheads are dominant, and that's fine if the kick and snare are very present in the tracks, but if not you need to bolster it with the close mic tracks. The drummers fills are decent, but his four-on-the-floor is sloppy and the snare is late. Listen to the kick and bass. There's no separation. It's just a rumble of low end mush. That kind of stuff is going to separate a great recording from a "local recording". You have to walk the line between letting the players have "their sound" and making them make the changes they need to make so the recording is good.

[Bill L]

The kick is still a problem, as you already know. It's got no punch.
The snare could be tuned better. It's boxy and dull.
Toms sound good.

Again, the kick and snare need to drive the thing, and neither has enough personality on their own to stand out. Notice they get kind of lost in the full mix. The overheads are dominant, and that's fine if the kick and snare are very present in the tracks, but if not you need to bolster it with the close mic tracks. The drummers fills are decent, but his four-on-the-floor is sloppy and the snare is late. Listen to the kick and bass. There's no separation. It's just a rumble of low end mush. That kind of stuff is going to separate a great recording from a "local recording". You have to walk the line between letting the players have "their sound" and making them make the changes they need to make so the recording is good.

I agree on all points. It's been difficult to get across that what sounds good in person isn't what ends up being recorded. The singer was playing acoustic and was "fighting" the drummer who did all he could to reign him in. Our biggest issue is going to be timing as even with the click in the singer/acoustic headphones he still speeds up. We'll see what happens tomorrow night.

So to recap, better tuning on the snare and more snap (there's very little bottom snare on this mix. Might that be an issue?) and more punch on the kick. I'm thinking more deadening of the resonate head and perhaps we tuning the batter head. Any other suggestions

[Greg_L]

I agree on all points. It's been difficult to get across that what sounds good in person isn't what ends up being recorded. The singer was playing acoustic and was "fighting" the drummer who did all he could to reign him in. Our biggest issue is going to be timing as even with the click in the singer/acoustic headphones he still speeds up. We'll see what happens tomorrow night.

So to recap, better tuning on the snare and more snap (there's very little bottom snare on this mix. Might that be an issue?) and more punch on the kick. I'm thinking more deadening of the resonate head and perhaps we tuning the batter head. Any other suggestions

Bottom snare miking is good but it's a delicate balance between the top and the bottom in the mix. Not enough bottom, and it sounds donky and boxy. Too much bottom, and it has no attack. The snare sounds real fat to me, which can be good, but you gotta get more pop out of it. Crack. It needs some crack and then the body of the snare does the rest. If you have the top mic too close to the top head or aimed too centered it can sound boxy and donky. Like....donk. That's what it sounds like. Back the mic off, give it some breathing room, but watch the hat bleed. I usually mic my snare off the rim, it gets some wire snap in the top mic, and the ass end of the mic is pointed at the hats for as much hi hat rejection as I can get. Works for me. Give it a try.


What kind of muffling do you have on the snare? Muffling is okay but don't choke it to death. It should ring a little bit and have some openness. That gives it tone and depth.

The kick....you just gotta keep working at it. Slap and body. You need some beater attack. Get inside the drum. Take the front head off. If you can't get inside the drum, mic the beater and the reso head and blend them. You gotta get more attack out of it.

[Bill L]

I agree on all points. It's been difficult to get across that what sounds good in person isn't what ends up being recorded. The singer was playing acoustic and was "fighting" the drummer who did all he could to reign him in. Our biggest issue is going to be timing as even with the click in the singer/acoustic headphones he still speeds up. We'll see what happens tomorrow night.

So to recap, better tuning on the snare and more snap (there's very little bottom snare on this mix. Might that be an issue?) and more punch on the kick. I'm thinking more deadening of the resonate head and perhaps we tuning the batter head. Any other suggestions

Bottom snare miking is good but it's a delicate balance between the top and the bottom in the mix. Not enough bottom, and it sounds donky and boxy. Too much bottom, and it has no attack. The snare sounds real fat to me, which can be good, but you gotta get more pop out of it. Crack. It needs some crack and then the body of the snare does the rest. If you have the top mic too close to the top head or aimed too centered it can sound boxy and donky. Like....donk. That's what it sounds like. Back the mic off, give it some breathing room, but watch the hat bleed. I usually mic my snare off the rim, it gets some wire snap in the top mic, and the ass end of the mic is pointed at the hats for as much hi hat rejection as I can get. Works for me. Give it a try.


What kind of muffling do you have on the snare? Muffling is okay but don't choke it to death. It should ring a little bit and have some openness. That gives it tone and depth.

The kick....you just gotta keep working at it. Slap and body. You need some beater attack. Get inside the drum. Take the front head off. If you can't get inside the drum, mic the beater and the reso head and blend them. You gotta get more attack out of it.

Thanks for all of your help. I'll try your snare set up and see what happens. There is little to no dampening on the snare. Just 1 moon gel I think. The kick has a solid head (no opening) and I've taped some dish towels on it but it wasn't really to my liking. I'm planning on adding some more mass or something different to deaden it further. If I can talk him into taking the head off that would be best as I have some moving blankets that should be able to do what I need. And not having the front head should take care of the the beater issue as I can get the mic closer to the beater.

I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out with this.

[liv_rong]

I agree with the greg, too much mush. Definitely can be helped by tuning. I dont have any good tips because I dont really know what I am doing and Greg knows a lot of tried and true details that I should probably learn. But I have a couple things that Ive learned along the way. I've been recording drums for about 5 years now and it has been a process. Every drum is a little different but for my kick I actually have my batter head much tighter than greg recommended and my reso is more loose than the batter. I have a small pillow in there that touches both heads but not by much. My mic is about halfway in the drum pointed right where the beater makes contact, slightly off axis. I used to mic the reso head but cutting a hole in the head and sticking the mic in there got me better results. I also remove some low end and then just a preset compressor setting.

My snare tracks have always been a little thin and Ive struggled with it. One thing is I dont like a snare with a ton of bottom end, I like a nice higher frequency crack and ringing overtones. I do struggle trying to achieve these things though. I crank both heads pretty well and am always playing with tuning. I'll eq some low out, sometimes bring up some highs too, and run a some fairly aggressive compressor settings. I just recently started getting it sounding as good as I can on its own then I copy the track, bring it down in level a bunch and then add a plate reverb to it then slowly bring it back up in the mix until it sounds just right. It has brought the snare sound more upfront and less boxy.

Here is a section from my most recent endeavor. The first is the raw recording, then the mixed version with fx then the full mix. Only sharing to show an example of the results I get from the description above. It's a constant struggle lol.

[Bill L]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Liv. Tracking has improved greatly as I've been able to get rid of most of the low end issue. We are doing some more tracking tonight. At the moment, we have 3 songs done with drums and we're looking to add a couple of more over the next couple of sessions. Once drum tracking is complete, we'll start on guitars. I'll upload some newer samples when I get a chance.

Again, I really want to thank you guys for taking some time to listen and comment.