Gain Staging

[Minerman]

I've wondered about this forever now & wanna know what you guys think about this...I understand the principle of having the right amount of signal/the -18db thing/etc...

But what I'd like to know is do I need to go through everything in the signal chain to stay in that "sweet spot", even if there is no audible clipping???

clip light 2.PNG

clip light 1.PNG

I've watched all kinds of videos & saw a lot of the plugins being used are clipping because of the red light indicator shows it's lit like the pics above...

IE: Signal chain: guitar di > vst compressor > vst ampsim/cabinet > reverb

Say the di is hitting the meter in my daw at around -18db...After it's ran through the compressor & the signal is hitting -10db, would I turn the compressor's overall volume down to get back into the "sweet spot", or use the track fader to do so??? Then repeat the same thing with each plug in the chain, making sure the signal stays pretty much in the sweet spot...

I already know clipping is a no-no, but would doing this really help to get the best sound from these plugins, or am I just being too picky like always...

[ocnor]

If I'm understanding your question correctly you would want to turn the compressor volume back down. If the clip light is coming on then it's clipping whether it's audible or not. If you use the fader to set the level then you would be forced to mix the other instruments around the guitar track.

[Minerman]

If I'm understanding your question correctly you would want to turn the compressor volume back down. If the clip light is coming on then it's clipping whether it's audible or not. If you use the fader to set the level then you would be forced to mix the other instruments around the guitar track.

Thanks dude, & I concur you hit the nail on the head about my question...That makes sense to me, that's pretty much what I thought, & I'm just trying to get a few confirmations on the subject...I assumed if anything in the signal chain shows clipping, then something's too hot, regardless if it's audible or not...

I've wondered about this for a long time, & again, I've watched countless videos where you can see the clip light on the plugins they're using...

I have some more things to ask & to add to the discussion about plugins, so hopefully some of the other guys will let me know what they think about this...

[Greg_L]

I think it might depend on the plug in. If you're using an analog modeling plug that expects to see the -18dbfs = 0dbv thing....then yeah, watch clipping. The plug is wanting a certain level. But they don't all act like that. So to be safe, I think if you see clipping, fix it and avoid it. If you're not clipping and everything sounds fine, then just roll with it.

[vomitHatSteve]

Once you're in software, things can get a little weird.

A lot of DAWs and things will quietly increase headroom during playback so that you don't hear that clipping but will allow it through during render.

So if a random effect in the middle of your chain says it's clipping, you might be ok on render, but if the tail end of your chain does, you'll probably end up with real clips.

[Farview]

Not to muddy the waters, but sometimes you want to clip an analog sim plugin, just as it is sometimes awesome to clip the actual analog equipment. Overdriving an 1176 is not necessarily a bad thing. You do however need to make sure you aren't clipping the input of the next thing in the chain when you don't want to.

[Minerman]

Not to muddy the waters, but sometimes you want to clip an analog sim plugin, just as it is sometimes awesome to clip the actual analog equipment. Overdriving an 1176 is not necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah, I've got a few of those type of plugins, thanks for the confirmation though...You have a lot of experience with stuff like this, so anything you wanna throw at me is more than appreciated...

You do however need to make sure you aren't clipping the input of the next thing in the chain when you don't want to.

+1 dude, this is basically the solution/answer I was looking for...It's nice to have a couple/few people confirm that I'm on the right path though...

I'm gonna assume this goes for all plugins, not just the analog modeled plugs like compressors, channel strips, console emulations, but for vsti's like virtual drums/keyboards/etc, right??? It would seem that way, to me anyhow...


All this popped into my head a few nights ago when I was watching some YT vids...I saw a few pretty well known guys giving tutorials about their workflow, how they mix, etc, & a lot of the plugins they were using had the clip indicator on...I asked all of those guys about it, but none of 'em replied to my question (which was basically what I've asked here)...

Something else I've been thinking about is these plugins were designed/made to operate/work their best with "x" amount of signal...So obviously, it would be bad to have too much/too hot because they'd clip...But, if they didn't have a hot enough signal, they might not sound as good as they're supposed to...

Any of you guys have any thoughts on that???

[Farview]

Yes, it is good practice. Whether or not it makes any real difference depends on how the code was written. You can never go wrong by using analog style gain structure.

[Greg_L]

You can never go wrong by using analog style gain structure.

+1 to that.

To take it even further....you can never go wrong just treating the whole damn thing as analog.

[Minerman]

You can never go wrong by using analog style gain structure.

+1 to that.

To take it even further....you can never go wrong just treating the whole damn thing as analog.

Thanks dudes, I pretty much go about this as suggested, but I was wondering if I might be missing something that you guys are aware of & I'm not over here...

I gotta say, it drives me insane to have a clip light on a plugin lit up...I meticulously check each plugin for each track, start to finish, top to bottom...

Thanks again guys, & if there's anything else, please do let me know...