Can anyone eyeball more info about this guitar?

[CrowsofFritz]

So this is my favorite guitar ever—and easily the best I’ll ever own. The seller I bought it from claims it was built in the 1910s. I don’t necessarily distrust that claim. As you can see, it uses pegs to tune rather than tuners, but of course there are still guitars out there that are built with pegs (example being Córdoba 45FP).

I just want to know what woods these are. Looks like the body is made from a different wood than the neck. Also, were golpeadado (tap plates) even used back then? Everyone keeps saying it just looks far newer than the guitar itself.

This thing is light af. It almost feels like it’s made out of balsa it’s so light Not too bright a sound. The flamenco guitar I once owned had a much brighter sound than this one. I stuck my phone inside and it had a 7 fan brace on the front piece.

[CrowsofFritz]

So the top definitely looks like spruce to me, just doing some looking on my own. I’m guessing the neck is mahogany? Not sure. Still trying to see what the back and sides are.

Edit: kinda looks like Maple, maybe.

I’m just wondering how this is so dang light. I heard Torres made frighteningly thin tops and sides. This is definitely not a Torres, but based on the 7 fan brace and how thin the wood seems to be, it definitely seems like it was doing a lot of Torres imitation.

[muttley]

More pics would be handy and close ups of the detail both inside and out. Then I could tell you a little more about its build. There are quite a few construction methods and techniques used on them, that would point to a bespoke or quality build rather than a mkore mass produced guitar. I suspect the back and sides and also maybe the neck are Cypress grain is to wide for mahogany), which is and was very common on Flamenco and other Spanish influenced instruments of the age.

Those things were built light so I'm not surprised. That also leads me to suspect Cypress as the main timber used. Google up images of flamenco Cypress guitar and you will see what I mean.

Golpeado goes back a long way in Flamenco. It translates as "strike" or beaten" and has nothing to do with the timber itself. It could well be an addition or replacement. They get beaten up pretty quick especially before modern plastics and polymers were available.

Its very hard to offer anything more definite based on the images you have so all this is just best guess..

[CrowsofFritz]

Thanks Muttley! Was hoping you’d chime in.

Cypress definitely looks like it matches and makes sense. It’s cool too because I know some Torres guitars built in the 1890s are said to have been built “before there was a difference between classical and flamenco guitars,” yet I’ve always suspected my guitar to be leaning towards flamenco. Here are more pictures. The internal one is where the luthier sticker should be.

https://imgur.com/a/3Ch8aeK

[muttley]

Ok, with those close ups I can say with more certainty. The back and sides are Cypress, the neck is almost definitely spanish cedar and the top either spanish cedar or a VERY open grain spruce. I would lean toward the former but would have to see it up close. I suspect the bridge may not be original but it maybe, its almost definitely rosewood.. The binding looks like ebony and that would be appropriate. The head veneer looks like walnut but thats a guess. The internal cleats are indicative of a batch produced instrument but still handmade Do they run the length of the back or just part of it? Cleating is an old school method of supporting repairs to open joints.... That was quite common for the time. The practice of planting cleats like that stopped between the wars when most makers switched to using a timber strip or cloth support so that may help date it. Some would still have stuck with the old ways though so keep that in mind.

Again all this is best guess and with out handling it I cant say 100%. I can say that it is a nice example of what it is and in very good condition. My professional eye keeps yelling circa 1920 - 1930 but it could be 15 years either side of that. Also, I have seen a lot of Flamenco and Spanish made Classicals over the years but I am by no means an expert. Everything above is based on a luthiers best guess and 35+ years of handling wood and guitars..

I would love to hear it...

[muttley]

Not too bright a sound. The flamenco guitar I once owned had a much brighter sound than this one.

This is another reason that leans me towards a cedar top. Cedar after a number of years can go a bit "flabby"... not in a bad way but they do. They do keep the sweet mid range and sing nicely where as spruce tends to get a boomy and stay loud.

[CrowsofFritz]

Thanks so much, Muttley! I posted a recording of me playing Spanish Romance in HR a while back, but I deleted that recording unfortunately. I was surprised that Greg even called it the best acoustic guitar he’d ever heard on the forums. I’d link it but I’m not sure if that’s allowed here.

But I’ll definitely get back to post a recording once I’m back at my apartment. I’m with my dad for Thanksgiving, and I’d only be able to do a phone recording atm.

Edit: just looked and it’s actually a thread YOU started, Muttley. The Old Tone thread. You told me to post pictures of my guitar and I have finally delivered.

Also, the cleats run all the way down the middle. And the sides have them at 90 degree angles all around the guitar....with a whole lotta adehsive on them. The ones in the picture probably have the most conservative amount of glue.

[muttley]

Well I'm perma b& at HR so I wont be able to find that...

If the cleats are part of the construction and not a crack repair that definitely makes it old. No one has built like that for years...

[CrowsofFritz]

Awesome! Well, I won’t have a high quality recording for a bit, so here’s a crappy iPad recording

It at least gives you a general idea of the sound. Its sweet spot is pretty large. Doesn’t matter too much where I point the mic. Lots of plunks. I need to practice more...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gorkbfjalu2rw ... e.m4a?dl=0

[CrowsofFritz]

I posted this guitar on a flamenco forum, and all the luthiers there are gushing over it, both the character of the guitar and the sound. I love this thing.

[muttley]

Excellent. Did you ever get any more verifiable info on that fine guitar?

[CrowsofFritz]

Excellent. Did you ever get any more verifiable info on that fine guitar?

The top is still a mystery. Some believe it to be a wide grain spruce while others believe it to be pine. Everyone else aged it exactly as you did. At LEAST 80 years old. One luthier believed the neck to be fir. The other woods were as you said.

I contacted Richard Brune about it, so we’ll see what he says, if he contacts me back.

Here’s a proper recording of the thing:

[CrowsofFritz]

As I was typing that, I got a response! They believe it to be spruce! It’s an inexpensive small factory guitar made for the casual strummer.

[WhiskeyJack]

I somehow missed this thread in it's entirety. Very cool guitar @CrowsofFritz!!!! I like the mystery behind it. The whole thing and makes for a cool story.

I can almost hear it's light weightiness in the way the sound comes out of it. If that makes sense. Very very cool. Also really good picking skills sir. What a great piece of kit!!!

[JD01]

This passed me by before too. Got nothing to add other than... Nice guitar.

[CrowsofFritz]

Thanks @WhiskeyJack and @JD01

As said in his email, these guitars have intonation issues. Keep in mind that the bar for good intonation for serious classical and flamenco players is insane. I have good pitch perception and I can’t hear ANY issues below the 9th fret, though I do hear some minor ones above it. Costs $2000 to have that fixed, which is more than the price I paid for it. Given my style, it’s more than good enough for me.

I imagine the price of this guitar will only go up (very) little by little over time as more of these guitars are “retired.” Classical and flamenco players love to stick to tradition and cyclically come back to these guitars are it is a significant era in guitar making. Many people would like to have one in their collection just because of that.

[vomitHatSteve]

It’s an inexpensive small factory guitar made for the casual strummer.

So it's a cheap, beater guitar that got lucky to have endured for 100 years and so is now a pricey antique!

[JD01]

It’s an inexpensive small factory guitar made for the casual strummer.

So it's a cheap, beater guitar that got lucky to have endured for 100 years and so is now a pricey antique!

I don't think the same was ever likely for my old Encore.

[WhiskeyJack]

I imagine the price of this guitar will only go up (very) little by little over time as more of these guitars are “retired.”

It will, and you'd have a leg up on others by collecting and keeping all the information you can find about it together in one spot. That will likely attract the attention of collector or Flamenco purist / collector sometime down the road and the more ammo you have (provenance) to establish it over others like it and not leave much in the way of haggling on the buying end the better. Haggling will always happen, the more proof you have on your end the better.

Or you might get lucky and find someone who recognizes it tonal qualities and playability and give you what you know it's worth lol!!!

I have a boner for collecting old shit and have been bitten a few times for only just "having a story" about an item in place of the provenance. Guitars are a bit of a different world for me though admittedly. I was never much of a guitar collector for flipping. All mine are entirely sentimental to me and have meaning only to me. With the exception of maybe my Ibanez PF350 and my LP Jr (which continually seems to increase in value year over year ) none of what i own would fetch the interest of a collector or get me anything over 1000 bucks.

[CrowsofFritz]

These guitars don’t come around very often it seems. I’ve been browsing eBay for a while now—not to buy one but rather to just look—and I can’t find any classical guitar if this age. Seems like many have moved to Reverb. Still can’t find many guitars of this age, though, and the ones I can find are far more expensive than this one.