CrowsofFritz wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:45 am
Thanks @WhiskeyJack and @JD01
As said in his email, these guitars have intonation issues. Keep in mind that the bar for good intonation for serious classical and flamenco players is insane. I have good pitch perception and I can’t hear ANY issues below the 9th fret, though I do hear some minor ones above it. Costs $2000 to have that fixed, which is more than the price I paid for it. Given my style, it’s more than good enough for me.
I imagine the price of this guitar will only go up (very) little by little over time as more of these guitars are “retired.” Classical and flamenco players love to stick to tradition and cyclically come back to these guitars are it is a significant era in guitar making. Many people would like to have one in their collection just because of that.
I don't buy that intonation thing being down to incorrect fret placement. Those guys new what they were doing. Intonation of classical and flamenco guitars are nearly always down to worn strings and action. Nylon and gut is more susceptible to changes in tension and old strings losing consistent mass per unit length.
If you can get the action back where it was when it was built and get the right strings on there it will nearly always play well. Intonation on those is ALWAYS off even on the finest examples, especially for those that have good ears. Top classical players will compensate with touch and finger technique.
I wouldn't have any work done on it other than set up unless it needs damage fixing.
CrowsofFritz wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:45 am
Thanks @WhiskeyJack and @JD01
As said in his email, these guitars have intonation issues. Keep in mind that the bar for good intonation for serious classical and flamenco players is insane. I have good pitch perception and I can’t hear ANY issues below the 9th fret, though I do hear some minor ones above it. Costs $2000 to have that fixed, which is more than the price I paid for it. Given my style, it’s more than good enough for me.
I imagine the price of this guitar will only go up (very) little by little over time as more of these guitars are “retired.” Classical and flamenco players love to stick to tradition and cyclically come back to these guitars are it is a significant era in guitar making. Many people would like to have one in their collection just because of that.
I don't buy that intonation thing being down to incorrect fret placement. Those guys new what they were doing. Intonation of classical and flamenco guitars are nearly always down to worn strings and action. Nylon and gut is more susceptible to changes in tension and old strings losing consistent mass per unit length.
If you can get the action back where it was when it was built and get the right strings on there it will nearly always play well. Intonation on those is ALWAYS off even on the finest examples, especially for those that have good ears. Top classical players will compensate with touch and finger technique.
I wouldn't have any work done on it other than set up unless it needs damage fixing.
Sounds good! And when I say there are minor pitch issues above the 9th fret, they are REALLY minor. To give you an idea, I can tell the difference in pitch of 0.76% of a half step (I know this because I use an app called InTune to measure myself). I would say the pitch difference of these wrong frets between what the note is and should be is less than 3% of a half step—if I’m taking an educated guess. No average person could tell that difference. People with good ears can, but it’d be hard, especially if you’re playing a complicated song. Below the 9th fret, even I can’t tell any differences.
If cheaper made guitars back in the 1910s-20s have intonation problems due to faulty math, then I lucked out and got a great one.
I offered to send Brune a recording to show this but he only accepts hearing it in person, which I guess is fair.
“Naaaaaaaaaah man. I ain’t touching that mic. That thing’s expensive!”
I don't buy that intonation thing being down to incorrect fret placement. Those guys new what they were doing. Intonation of classical and flamenco guitars are nearly always down to worn strings and action. Nylon and gut is more susceptible to changes in tension and old strings losing consistent mass per unit length.
If you can get the action back where it was when it was built and get the right strings on there it will nearly always play well. Intonation on those is ALWAYS off even on the finest examples, especially for those that have good ears. Top classical players will compensate with touch and finger technique.
I wouldn't have any work done on it other than set up unless it needs damage fixing.
Sounds good! And when I say there are minor pitch issues above the 9th fret, they are REALLY minor. To give you an idea, I can tell the difference in pitch of 0.76% of a half step (I know this because I use an app called InTune to measure myself). I would say the pitch difference of these wrong frets between what the note is and should be is less than 3% of a half step—if I’m taking an educated guess. No average person could tell that difference. People with good ears can, but it’d be hard, especially if you’re playing a complicated song. Below the 9th fret, even I can’t tell any differences.
If cheaper made guitars back in the 1910s-20s have intonation problems due to faulty math, then I lucked out and got a great one.
I offered to send Brune a recording to show this but he only accepts hearing it in person, which I guess is fair.
Many people can hear pitch anomalies and assume the intonation of their instruments are futzed. Not saying that is you at all but they do. The reality is that many of those anomalies are down to temperament and not pitch. In your case you are comparing a specific pitch ion one place with the same pitch sounded at another position, that IS intonation and when the pitch gets close you should be listening for "beats". People who describe intervals as being inconsistent or incorrect are talking temperament. I know two people on this board who can definitely hear beats because they have trained themselves to do it and that would be LT (piano tuner 101) and me. If you can then you have a very precise ear. Normally a slight anomaly in pitch from low down the fret board to the upper end is acceptable because you rarely sound those notes in unison or as intervals. It can be a problem when playing with other musicians and that's where the musicians touch come in.
Normally in a musical context a good ear will start to hear inconsistencies above the 10 cent range, that depends on timbre, pitch, duration, amplitude etc... A piano tuner will deliberately tune a few cents inaccuracy into the higher pitched unisons. Other wind and brass players will similarly moderate pitch as they play. Guitar players do it as well without knowing it. These days I just accept it as part of the process of both making and playing musical instruments but understanding the concepts behind Intonation, temperament and pitch perception are important milestones IMHO.
If you are interested in the science of pitch perception this is quite a good paper written at an appropriate level for the average musician like us all.
Sounds good! And when I say there are minor pitch issues above the 9th fret, they are REALLY minor. To give you an idea, I can tell the difference in pitch of 0.76% of a half step (I know this because I use an app called InTune to measure myself). I would say the pitch difference of these wrong frets between what the note is and should be is less than 3% of a half step—if I’m taking an educated guess. No average person could tell that difference. People with good ears can, but it’d be hard, especially if you’re playing a complicated song. Below the 9th fret, even I can’t tell any differences.
If cheaper made guitars back in the 1910s-20s have intonation problems due to faulty math, then I lucked out and got a great one.
I offered to send Brune a recording to show this but he only accepts hearing it in person, which I guess is fair.
Many people can hear pitch anomalies and assume the intonation of their instruments are futzed. Not saying that is you at all but they do. The reality is that many of those anomalies are down to temperament and not pitch. In your case you are comparing a specific pitch ion one place with the same pitch sounded at another position, that IS intonation and when the pitch gets close you should be listening for "beats". People who describe intervals as being inconsistent or incorrect are talking temperament. I know two people on this board who can definitely hear beats because they have trained themselves to do it and that would be LT (piano tuner 101) and me. If you can then you have a very precise ear. Normally a slight anomaly in pitch from low down the fret board to the upper end is acceptable because you rarely sound those notes in unison or as intervals. It can be a problem when playing with other musicians and that's where the musicians touch come in.
Normally in a musical context a good ear will start to hear inconsistencies above the 10 cent range, that depends on timbre, pitch, duration, amplitude etc... A piano tuner will deliberately tune a few cents inaccuracy into the higher pitched unisons. Other wind and brass players will similarly moderate pitch as they play. Guitar players do it as well without knowing it. These days I just accept it as part of the process of both making and playing musical instruments but understanding the concepts behind Intonation, temperament and pitch perception are important milestones IMHO.
If you are interested in the science of pitch perception this is quite a good paper written at an appropriate level for the average musician like us all.
