trying to get best drum sound possible w/limited gear, part...who knows?

[SweetDan]

Bashing the skins again, trying to eek out improvement where I can without spending any dough. Summary of my room & gear:

• 2-input interface

• 3 mics (1 condensor, 2 dynamics) to choose from

• drum kit set up in a smallish room but with a high ceiling (10'W x 11'L x 11'H), closest (~2') to back wall, centered left/right in room (my room/office is used for work, mixing and practice, so the kit is behind the listening position)

• a little bit of acoustic treatment, all DIY, all 1 layer of Roxul thick; configuration set up more for mixing than tracking:
  • two 16"x42" panels, each vertically L/R corners behind desk and serving as bass traps
  • two 16"x24" panels, left/right, at first reflection points from listening position
  • one 16"x35" panel, horizontally on a low bookshelf on the back wall

Really, that last, horizontal acoustic panel is the only one purposefully situated for tracking, with the idea that it will trap the first reflections between the kit and the (single) overhead mic.

Anyway, I just recorded some sound clips with a few different mic configurations. The mic positions in these clips stayed the same, but the mic selection at each position varied. I'll wait for a few days to reveal which mics I used where.

The positions were:

• Mono overhead mic, about two stick lengths up and away from top snare head, a few inches to the right, but aimed towards the left side of the drumhead

• Close mic on the kick (which has an offset port hole cut in the resonant head), mic capsule barely inside the head, and pointed slightly towards the center of the batter head

I'm looking for feedback on: 1) the best-sounding of the bunch, and 2) given the one you've selected as the best, and given the room and gear limitations, what would you do to improve the sound? (Both without and with spending more $$ to acquire more gear, things like suggesting better mic positions, or adding more sound treatment, vs. buying another mic, though I'm not totally opposed, I just need to be budget conscious.)

[Greg_L]

I think I like C the best.

I like C because it's more balanced. A and B are overpowered by cymbals. They're all overpowered by cymbals, but C is the least overpowered by cymbals. And C's hats and cymbals seem a little smoother. A and B are a little harsh in the top end.

Now, here's what I think you need to actually worry about - playing and tuning.

It sounds to me like you're playing that snare awfully limp wristed. Crack that bitch. You can't hurt it. You don't need to beat the shit out of it, but give it more thwack. Your little accents are as loud as the downbeats. That's weird. It will sound tighter and project better if you give it more focused hits. Go easy on the cymbals, heavy on the drums. It sounds good and it's almost like self mixing.

Also tune the drums to have them sound a little more like you might want them to sound. To me, the snare is too low and the kick is too bouncy. Tighten the snare heads to slightly different pitches, and tighten the snare wires so you get some nice snap without a bunch of rattle. You might want to put some light muffling in the kick drum and tune it lower so it doesn't sound so boxy and bouncy. Put your muffling so it just barely touches the batter head and let the resonant head breathe freely. That's a good starting point for a deep but toneful kick.

[SweetDan]

Thanks. Practice...the cheapest upgrade of all!

...You might want to put some light muffling in the kick drum and tune it lower so it doesn't sound so boxy and bouncy. Put your muffling so it just barely touches the batter head and let the resonant head breathe freely. That's a good starting point for a deep but toneful kick.

So, do you think that given my mic selection, and especially noting that I don't have a purpose-built kick mic, that simply changing the tuning of the kick will make a big difference? (I didn't mention earlier; it's an 18" diameter kick, and I have a rolled-up towel lightly touching both heads in there to help dampen things. Maybe the towel isn't soft enough...)

Better idea: I'll just try your suggested tuning and performance changes, and see how it goes!

[vomitHatSteve]

C has brighter cymbals, but I think B had them slightly less overwhelming.

Greg's right about hitting that snare harder tho. "tone is in the hands" as they say. Applies to drums too.

[SweetDan]

OK, here's take "T" - for "tuning". (Per Greg's suggestions, if I read them right...tune yer damn drums! lol) I tuned the snare higher, the kick lower, and played louder. Same mics as in clip "C", and I tried to position them the same as the previous clips (though the kick mic is a bit deeper through the port hole...sounded better).

[SweetDan]

Here are these, too, if anyone's interested...

/me I can't believe he said "limp wristed"...ok, coach!

[vomitHatSteve]

That's still a pretty light touch.

[Greg_L]

That's still a pretty light touch.

I agree with pukecapsteph. It still sounds pretty light. Light tapping. I'm not trying to beat it to death - pun intended lol - but you can lay into the drums more with some authority. Snares crack when you hit them. They sound ploppy and dumpy when you don't. Lol. Dumpy. I'm trademarking that. Dumpy Snare Sound.

Anyway, the kick too. Sounds like you're playing heel-down....which is fine for light tappy jazz. There's not much thwack. Get that heel up a little and play with the ball of your foot. It makes a huge difference. I think a ton of your overall sound will improve with just technique tweaks.

[SweetDan]

That's still a pretty light touch.

I agree with pukecapsteph. It still sounds pretty light. Light tapping. I'm not trying to beat it to death - pun intended lol - but you can lay into the drums more with some authority. Snares crack when you hit them. They sound ploppy and dumpy when you don't. Lol. Dumpy. I'm trademarking that. Dumpy Snare Sound.

Anyway, the kick too. Sounds like you're playing heel-down....which is fine for light tappy jazz. There's not much thwack. Get that heel up a little and play with the ball of your foot. It makes a huge difference. I think a ton of your overall sound will improve with just technique tweaks.

"...light tapping..." Well, over in one corner of the internet --> https://www.reddit.com/r/tippytaps <-- that sort of thing is cute.

Anyway, some good stuff here in this thread (so thanks for sharing ), and I've obviously still got a lot to learn re: playing the drums in general (only been at that task for maybe a couple of years now).

Am I playing heel down? Check. I like jazz, though (and some shoegaze/indy from time to time), but I'm not playing drums to that. String bass, yes. Drums, I'm not good enough.

Do my sticks, uh, lack girth? (Is that the kind of thing one should disclose on an internet forum? ) Of course...I've got - 7A's, nylon tips. I have some 5A's too, but they're wood tips, which I don't like too much. Time to get myself over to the local GC and sort through their stick bin.

The comment about a good "cracking" snare sound - when it happens, do you hear that in the room, or only on the recording? I've not heard it in my room, and y'all don't hear it on my recordings. Fun trip through the archives re: how hard everyone is hitting their snares...anyone remember this? If what some of those posts describe is "normal" playing volume as it relates to stick life (see choice quotes below), I've certainly got to play much, much harder.

...I usually get several band practices out of one set of sticks.

...I want my sticks cheap and light and guaranteed to break within 1 gig!

lol I've never broken a drum stick, and I've had the sticks I have as long as I've had these drums...about a couple of years.

[Greg_L]

You can tell anywhere when a snare is cracking. In the room, on a recording, it just has that sound. It's a tight rifleshot kind of thing. Rimshots....it's not just a sex act. There is a time and place for light hitting. Maybe that's just how you're going to play. You're doing yourself a disservice though if you don't learn how to use more power in this formative stage of your development.

Breaking sticks is not really indicative of anything besides maybe bad technique. They do wear out...but they shouldn't necessarily be breaking. Sometimes cheap sticks will break along a grain line even when brand new. Usually they break once they've worn out.

Stick size doesn't matter that much. Personal preference. I use 5As or 5Bs most of the time. Big heavy sticks don't mean bigger heavier sound. They're just bigger and heavier. A good drummer will thunder with 7As better than some hack bashing with 2Bs. Smaller sticks usually have a more focused sound. Nylon tips can enhance attack, but they can also be really bright when pinging a ride or on hats.

Playing the kick heel down will really inhibit the power of your foot stroke and it limits the punch of the kick drum. Learn how to play heel up, but keep heel down in your pocket. It's good to know both. Heel up is better. I don't care what anyone thinks. It's better.

[SweetDan]

So, this is slow going, and I do better with 2 limbs instead of 3 or 4. So, here's the kick + snare only; first set of clips is me playing like I usually do - "limp wristed" and heel down.

[SweetDan]

And the next set will be with a more forceful snare (plus playing with my dominant hand), and heel up:

[SweetDan]

Better?

It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway: I've applied no effects to any of these clips I've posted in this thread, and no processing, other than to adjust the levels of individual tracks/takes so the mix is roughly the same from clip to clip.

On that note, it was very interesting that in the kick+snare only examples I just posted, I didn't touch the levels of the "strong armed / heel up" samples, but I did raise the "limp wristed" about 10dB and the "heel up down" takes about 8dB to match the levels of the mix.

(And I hear throughout the rest of the house that the wife and kids raised the levels of their respective TV shows and/or computer games...lol!)

EDIT: It's also interesting to note that I don't hear much difference in the snare in the last two groupings of clips, but I hear a huge difference in the kick. Perhaps the thing "wrong" (if you want to call it that) with not smacking the skins hard enough is that the softer you play, the more relative sustain each hit has, and that sustain perhaps muddies things up. But it's not only that; I looked on a scope, and the "heel down up" kick take has more high-frequency content -- the "beater click", I suppose. (It's a hard-felt beater, granted, so it's not really a click per se, but you can certainly hear it's got more up there...)

EDIT 2: So, with the revelation in the difference in the sound of the kick, is it possible to make a good-sounding recording of acoustic drums at lower volumes/playing-intensities? Hmmm.....

[SweetDan]

One more thought: since at this point it seems I'll improve the quality of the recordings by improving the quality of my playing, rather than mic technique or selection, I won't keep everybody in suspense anymore. Here are the mics I used in clips A, B, and C (everything after the first post has the same mic configuration as in clip C):

Mics:
Blue Spark, large-diaphragm condensor
Shure SM57, dynamic
E/V CO9, dynamic, intended as a vocal rather than an instrument mic

Positions:
A: SM57 (overhead), Spark (kick)
B: Spark (overhead), CO9 (kick)
C: SM57 (overhead), CO9 (kick)

[Greg_L]

To me the "strong arm" tracks sound more focused. The snare's tone isn't that different, it's not going to be, but it's focus is better. It sounds tighter and crackier. The snap is quicker. The kick is much improved with heel up. So now what you do is vary your snare hits for dynamics. You use a combination of hard and soft whacks. And learn how to rimshot. And work on your timing. Then you'll be ready to try an album with real drums....or do it now if you want.

[vomitHatSteve]

If nothing else, having a bit more force on the kick and snare will help it cut through the mix better.

[SweetDan]

Another interesting bit of info that plays into the sound I'm able to (or not able to) achieve: my snare has 6 lugs. I hadn't thought about that much, but it makes sense it would sound different, as demonstrated in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9fnpFA ... u.be&t=467. (In the first part of the video, the presenter goes into the forces involved that make a 6-lug drum sound different than an 8- or a 10-lug drum, even when tuned to the same pitch.)

(It's a little uncanny how much the sound of my drum resembles the 6-lug drum in that video, and is really not much like the 8- or 10-lug drums at all. And for curiosity's sake, I just checked: I'm tuned about 1/2 step below his tuning.)

Anyway, thanks everybody for your ears and comments; they've helped me learn a thing or two, and pointed me in a better direction that I may have headed.

[JD01]

Dan, I've not commented on this cos I'm a shit drummer with no experience of recording real drums.

However, you're clearly making progress. I wouldn't bother worrying about shit like number of lugs on your snare for now though. Concentrate on tuning and technique.

[Greg_L]

The number of lugs does matter though. It's not a better or worse thing, more like an easier or harder thing. More lugs give more range and fine tuning. I had a very old 6-lug Rogers snare that sounded good, but it was never tight and bright. It always sounded tuned low and dark no matter how tight you cranked it.