NEW GEAR!! Buying anything?

[musicturtle]

So I have come to grips with the fact that I will rarely mic up an amp and record guitar that way.

I ordered this little box today to help with my direct in sound for bass and electric guitar.

[Greg_L]

Nice! Love his sound as well.

You are always building something or doing some sort of upgrade. Pretty awesome.

Ha that is pretty true. Gotta keep the mind and body busy.

Though I was lamenting just the other day that I'm running out of projects.

[JD01]

Nice! Love his sound as well.

You are always building something or doing some sort of upgrade. Pretty awesome.

Ha that is pretty true. Gotta keep the mind and body busy.

Though I was lamenting just the other day that I'm running out of projects.

Time to learn to wind pickups? Build a 1W Marshal in a package small enough to ship across the Atlantic for under 20 bucks?

[Greg_L]

Time to learn to wind pickups? Build a 1W Marshal in a package small enough to ship across the Atlantic for under 20 bucks?

I have actually considered giving pickup winding a try. At least just to make some for myself. That's a whole new process and materials that I don't really wanna get into though. I don't think I could do anything better than what's already out there. And pickups are cheap enough that there's no real savings to making your own.

As for a 1 watt Marshall...I've seen schematics using a 12AU7 as a push/pull power tube. You'd need a chassis about the size of a Fender Vibrochamp. Since a 1 watt Marshall will still have the same preamp configuration as the big boys and a fairly large power transformer and choke, you need some space. It will be low watt, but not a small amp. If you wanna do it, I'm game.

[JD01]

Time to learn to wind pickups? Build a 1W Marshal in a package small enough to ship across the Atlantic for under 20 bucks?

I have actually considered giving pickup winding a try. At least just to make some for myself. That's a whole new process and materials that I don't really wanna get into though. I don't think I could do anything better than what's already out there. And pickups are cheap enough that there's no real savings to making your own.

As for a 1 watt Marshall...I've seen schematics using a 12AU7 as a push/pull power tube. You'd need a chassis about the size of a Fender Vibrochamp. Since a 1 watt Marshall will still have the same preamp configuration as the big boys and a fairly large power transformer and choke, you need some space. It will be low watt, but not a small amp. If you wanna do it, I'm game.

Ill look up a virbochamp for size and check that posting it won't be prohibitively/pointlessly expensive next week.

[Lt. Bob]

Though I was lamenting just the other day that I'm running out of projects.

Ampegs

[JD01]

Time to learn to wind pickups? Build a 1W Marshal in a package small enough to ship across the Atlantic for under 20 bucks?

I have actually considered giving pickup winding a try. At least just to make some for myself. That's a whole new process and materials that I don't really wanna get into though. I don't think I could do anything better than what's already out there. And pickups are cheap enough that there's no real savings to making your own.

As for a 1 watt Marshall...I've seen schematics using a 12AU7 as a push/pull power tube. You'd need a chassis about the size of a Fender Vibrochamp. Since a 1 watt Marshall will still have the same preamp configuration as the big boys and a fairly large power transformer and choke, you need some space. It will be low watt, but not a small amp. If you wanna do it, I'm game.

Can you estimate the size (x, y, z) of a head? I can't find a spec sheet online which gives the dims.

[Greg_L]

Can you estimate the size (x, y, z) of a head? I can't find a spec sheet online which gives the dims.

I just looked into it...the VibroChamp chassis could work but I'd need to add a bunch of holes. The Princeton Reverb would be a better chassis for a 1 watt Marshall-style build. It has better spacing and tube socket locations.

Princeton Reverb chassis
https://www.mojotone.com/Blackface-Prin ... le-Chassis

Head box
https://www.mojotone.com/Blackface-Prin ... -Cabinet_3

So....converted to metric....
The head box is roughly 24cm H x 51cm W x 22cm D

It would be a pretty big unit for a one watt amp. There's no way that I can see to make one of these a "micro" and still have it be worth a shit.

[JD01]

It would be a pretty big unit for a one watt amp. There's no way that I can see to make one of these a "micro" and still have it be worth a shit.

That would be 53 quid using the UPS online parcel quote tool from the UK to the USA. I can't use it to calculate in reverse. That's not too bad is it?
Just had an idea though which a) might make it even cheaper, b) possibly easier for you and c) fun 'cos you haven't done it before.

How about just a "front end" which I could stick into the power section of my H&K? Which is probably what I'd do with it most of the time anyway.
My H&K is 4No. EL84s in case you're interested.

[Greg_L]

That would be 53 quid using the UPS online parcel quote tool from the UK to the USA. I can't use it to calculate in reverse. That's not too bad is it?
Just had an idea though which a) might make it even cheaper, b) possibly easier for you and c) fun 'cos you haven't done it before.

How about just a "front end" which I could stick into the power section of my H&K? Which is probably what I'd do with it most of the time anyway.

You couldn't just plug the output of a complete 1 watt amp into the fx loop return. Bad mismatch. An fx return is not equipped to take speaker level signals.

You're talking basically a pre amp. That would still be a tube preamp requiring pretty big voltages and it would depend on how much of the preamp you want...and where the H&K inserts from the fx loop. Like would you need the tone stack of the Marshall? Only the first two stages? You might as well just use an emulator pedal if you're gonna do that.

[JD01]

OK, now I'm confused - gotta run now but I'll give this a bit more thought later.

[JD01]

I think I mean the whole preamp and tonestack part of the amp. I guess the 1W thing is a bit of a red herring cos it would be using the power section of my HK anyway.

So, my limited understanding of amps. You have front end consisting of an input transformer, tonestack and preamp tubes. Then you have a back end, power tubes and output transformer. People normally stick an FX loop between the two. Dunno where rectifiers fit into this.

So I was thinking a whole amp front end, which I could stick into the loop of my HK. Is this a possible thing?
Like those Victory preamps, that's what made me think of it.
https://www.victoryamps.com/product/v4- ... en-preamp/

[rayc]

So I have come to grips with the fact that I will rarely mic up an amp and record guitar that way.

I ordered this little box today to help with my direct in sound for bass and electric guitar.

WOW,
you went straight to the expensive ones.
It's a help though...I have a couple of cheap ones...one passive and one battery operated.
I always have bass DId.
Makes sense Tony, good purchase.

[Greg_L]

I think I mean the whole preamp and tonestack part of the amp. I guess the 1W thing is a bit of a red herring cos it would be using the power section of my HK anyway.

So, my limited understanding of amps. You have front end consisting of an input transformer, tonestack and preamp tubes. Then you have a back end, power tubes and output transformer. People normally stick an FX loop between the two. Dunno where rectifiers fit into this.

So I was thinking a whole amp front end, which I could stick into the loop of my HK. Is this a possible thing?
Like those Victory preamps, that's what made me think of it.
https://www.victoryamps.com/product/v4- ... en-preamp/

The question with those "tube preamp pedals" is if the tubes are really actually doing anything. It takes a lot of voltage to make a tube gain stage really work like we'd want them to. That's tough to get in a small package like a pedal. Most of the "tube" stuff out there is misleading and pretty phony. Some devices actually have bulbs behind the tubes to make them look like they're really cooking. Often the signal passes right through the tube and onto the usual solid state gain shenanigans you typically find in pedals and preamps. So yeah, it's got a tube, the signal goes through it, but it's not really making "gain".

As for that Victory thing, it's pretty suspicious to me for a few reasons. The tubes they claim to use are cheapo throwaway tubes that no one wants anyway. They're cheap and plentiful. They're basically radio tuner tubes. They're certainly not the typical guitar amp tubes you'd expect to find in something that makes high-ish gain. So why would they use those tubes? Probably so they can say they have an all-tube pedal with a bunch of tubes in it while knowing that most people couldn't actually tell one tube from another. Now having said that, if you do it right, you can make non-traditional tubes work for guitar amps. There are guys building boutique amps with weirdo tubes in them. They're certainly not post-grunge radio buttrock sounding amps though, as Victorys tend to be. Maybe Victory came up with a way to do it. I have to believe that other companies would be doing the same though if it were really viable.


Anyway, I'm assuming you'd want a "JCM" style Marshall preamp. That's two 12AX7s, and for it to be correct, it's gonna need about 300 volts DC on the B+ rail. To make that sound you need that voltage on those tubes. Actually, maybe a little more. That's how Marshall preamps work. I don't know how to get that much voltage in a small package. Maybe there is a special kind of tiny power transformer that can do it. I really don't know. We need 6.3v AC or 12vDC for the heaters too. There's also all of the wiring and components to consider. The 2203/2204 preamp is finicky. It's prone to noise and oscillation. Having all of that shit really cramped up cannot be good, especially since we'd be hand-wiring it. There are no pre-printed PCBs with micro surface mount components for this kind of thing.

You also need to know if you need the Marshall tone stack. The tone stack comes after the gain stages, but before the master volume, and from there it's on to the phase inverter. That's another part of the "Marshall sound". So does the H&K tone stack work after the FX loop? Or will you need the Marshall tone stack? I suppose you could have both. But it's more shit to consider. I'll look into it more.

[musicturtle]

WOW,
you went straight to the expensive ones.
It's a help though...I have a couple of cheap ones...one passive and one battery operated.
I always have bass DId.
Makes sense Tony, good purchase.

Yeah, I kicked around some of the cheaper ones. This popped up on sale through Amazon the other day. Still twice as much as a Behringer, but it should last forever.

[Armistice]

So I have come to grips with the fact that I will rarely mic up an amp and record guitar that way.

I ordered this little box today to help with my direct in sound for bass and electric guitar.

Very handy thing to have. I have a similar one but don't actually use it because of the way I record, but can still be useful in live settings...

Nice purchase.

[JD01]

I think I mean the whole preamp and tonestack part of the amp. I guess the 1W thing is a bit of a red herring cos it would be using the power section of my HK anyway.

So, my limited understanding of amps. You have front end consisting of an input transformer, tonestack and preamp tubes. Then you have a back end, power tubes and output transformer. People normally stick an FX loop between the two. Dunno where rectifiers fit into this.

So I was thinking a whole amp front end, which I could stick into the loop of my HK. Is this a possible thing?
Like those Victory preamps, that's what made me think of it.
https://www.victoryamps.com/product/v4- ... en-preamp/

The question with those "tube preamp pedals" is if the tubes are really actually doing anything. It takes a lot of voltage to make a tube gain stage really work like we'd want them to. That's tough to get in a small package like a pedal. Most of the "tube" stuff out there is misleading and pretty phony. Some devices actually have bulbs behind the tubes to make them look like they're really cooking. Often the signal passes right through the tube and onto the usual solid state gain shenanigans you typically find in pedals and preamps. So yeah, it's got a tube, the signal goes through it, but it's not really making "gain".

As for that Victory thing, it's pretty suspicious to me for a few reasons. The tubes they claim to use are cheapo throwaway tubes that no one wants anyway. They're cheap and plentiful. They're basically radio tuner tubes. They're certainly not the typical guitar amp tubes you'd expect to find in something that makes high-ish gain. So why would they use those tubes? Probably so they can say they have an all-tube pedal with a bunch of tubes in it while knowing that most people couldn't actually tell one tube from another. Now having said that, if you do it right, you can make non-traditional tubes work for guitar amps. There are guys building boutique amps with weirdo tubes in them. They're certainly not post-grunge radio buttrock sounding amps though, as Victorys tend to be. Maybe Victory came up with a way to do it. I have to believe that other companies would be doing the same though if it were really viable.


Anyway, I'm assuming you'd want a "JCM" style Marshall preamp. That's two 12AX7s, and for it to be correct, it's gonna need about 300 volts DC on the B+ rail. To make that sound you need that voltage on those tubes. Actually, maybe a little more. That's how Marshall preamps work. I don't know how to get that much voltage in a small package. Maybe there is a special kind of tiny power transformer that can do it. I really don't know. We need 6.3v AC or 12vDC for the heaters too. There's also all of the wiring and components to consider. The 2203/2204 preamp is finicky. It's prone to noise and oscillation. Having all of that shit really cramped up cannot be good, especially since we'd be hand-wiring it. There are no pre-printed PCBs with micro surface mount components for this kind of thing.

You also need to know if you need the Marshall tone stack. The tone stack comes after the gain stages, but before the master volume, and from there it's on to the phase inverter. That's another part of the "Marshall sound". So does the H&K tone stack work after the FX loop? Or will you need the Marshall tone stack? I suppose you could have both. But it's more shit to consider. I'll look into it more.

Yeah, while I mentioned the Victory ones (I briefly considered buying one of them, not Kraken, when they first came out) it was more for the idea of a preamp that you can plug into your power amp. I know you wouldn't be able to keep the size right down and I wouldn't expect you to.

I started thinking about the 1W thing and then I thought it would be even more convenient and useful for me if I could just integrate it into my current setup. One thing I don't know about is how the H&K tonestack and FX loop is set up. I assumed it was guitar>tonestack>FX Loop>Power amp... but that's cos I thought all amps worked this way!

I seem to remember the one I liked being the JTM45, but I'll have to check through them all again to check. There was something about it that wasn't quite as "spikey" sounding as the JCM800.

[musicturtle]

So I have come to grips with the fact that I will rarely mic up an amp and record guitar that way.

I ordered this little box today to help with my direct in sound for bass and electric guitar.

Very handy thing to have. I have a similar one but don't actually use it because of the way I record, but can still be useful in live settings...

Nice purchase.

You use the Kemper for all of your guitar tracks, right?

[Armistice]

Very handy thing to have. I have a similar one but don't actually use it because of the way I record, but can still be useful in live settings...

Nice purchase.

You use the Kemper for all of your guitar tracks, right?

Yep, bass as well - there's a standard set of bass amp profiles too.

[Greg_L]

Yeah, while I mentioned the Victory ones (I briefly considered buying one of them, not Kraken, when they first came out) it was more for the idea of a preamp that you can plug into your power amp. I know you wouldn't be able to keep the size right down and I wouldn't expect you to.

Yeah I don't know how to make it powerful but small without custom circuit boards and transformers.

I get the idea and appeal of those tube preamp pedals. I just don't know how "true" they really are. I'm also not an electrical engineer. So maybe they're awesome and I'm just too ignorant to understand how they're doing it.

There are tons of preamps out there. All of those floor modelers and AxeFX things are basically just preamps. You can run them into the power stage of a regular amp if the amp allows it. The JMP-1 and ADA MP1 were super popular with the rack mount guys. Lots of people still use them, and they're a good value for all the shit they can do.
https://reverb.com/item/50640323-marsha ... e-amp-unit
https://reverb.com/item/57722071-a-da-m ... tar-preamp

I don't know if they can just be inserted into an FX loop return though. I think if your loop can handle line level signal then any of that stuff can go right into it. I'm not that tuned in with external preamps and FX loop stuff. I never went down that path.

I started thinking about the 1W thing and then I thought it would be even more convenient and useful for me if I could just integrate it into my current setup. One thing I don't know about is how the H&K tonestack and FX loop is set up. I assumed it was guitar>tonestack>FX Loop>Power amp... but that's cos I thought all amps worked this way!

Sort of, but not really. That's generally how it works, but some amps have horrible FX loops that tap in and out of the amp at bad spots. Some of them are after the master volume which throws everything in the loop out of whack every time you change the volume. Some of them tap out before the tone stack so everything gets bogged down coming back in. Not all FX loops are set up to be used the way we're talking about. Some of them are nearly useless at all times. I remember Minerman's beloved Chupacabra had a horrible FX loop. That amp sounded great on it's own, but if you put anything into the loop it went to shit. There's a lot of stuff with buffering and impedances and level compensation that needs to be considered when designing or using an FX loop properly.

I seem to remember the one I liked being the JTM45, but I'll have to check through them all again to check. There was something about it that wasn't quite as "spikey" sounding as the JCM800.

The JTM45 gets it's goods from being cranked. Those old non-master Plexi Marshalls have very weak preamps. Having one as a "pre amp" is not a good idea. The sounds we all like from those amps pretty much solely relies on power stage meltdown.

The 2203/2204 amps can be a little spiky. That's the beauty of them. They're rock and roll grunt with sharp teeth. A full size version is a little much to sit in front of just noodling around at home. But live or in a mix, for rock and roll they're very hard to beat.