Let's talk about a very silly pickup

[vomitHatSteve]

IMG_20180409_0949166.jpg

So this is what I call "The Abomination". It's a cheap Rondo shortscale bass that I strung with 3 guitar strings and drop-tuned to D2D3A3D4.
Sounded pretty great except for the fact that the D2 string is way quieter than the rest.
So I hand-built a single-string pickup out of popsicle sticks and tossed it in there (circled orange) completely separate from the built-in electronics (circled green)

The problem I'm running into now is that getting the intonation right is all kinds of wonky. So I'm thinking of a total rebuild with a custom body and neck that could hold a consistent tuning.

Might as well do a custom pickup too!

So would it be feasible to create a mutt pup for this? I was also pondering the idea of combining the two pickups into a single one if that's even technically possible. Something like this:

IMG_20180409_0949166.jpg

[muttley]

Anything is possible within reason.

When you say combine the two do you mean have both the standard 4 poles and a single string pole built into one enclosure with lead wires off of each?

Give me a little more info and I will get my head round it. Presently I see two pups which is OK but I am also seeing two 1/4" jack sockets???

[Lt. Bob]

yes .... that wad of red tape in a third p'up just for the E and he wired it totally seperately.

[muttley]

So it's two pups and two cables.. There would be easier ways to do that..

[vomitHatSteve]

Yeah, it's currently two pups and two cables.

I run each one to different amps, so I'd like to keep the 2 cable setup, but if we can fit it into the space of 1 pup, that seems more efficient.

[muttley]

You could fit it into one pickup. you would then just have two lead wires wires and a common ground. You would have to think carefully about how it would all work in terms of how the induction of one coil and magnet would affect the other though...The closer you put them to each other the more affect they would have on each other. I'll give it some thought. Essentially what you have is a twin coil humbucker which has each coil going to a separate jack socket. Give me a rationale or what you like in terms of how it currently works and I'll think it over some more..

[vomitHatSteve]

Problem is I know pretty much none of the math! And not much more of the wiring. Would two lead wires and a single ground mean I'm somehow connecting two jacks to three wires?

I just did some comparisons of actual levels, and the bass string does provide about the same signal strength as any of the others, it just sounds much quieter (especially through guitar heads). I've got a second - much shorter-scale - bass that I've strung and tuned the same way. It has the same sort of mid-body split pickup and produces a very similar sound through the same amps.

So the things I like about the current setup: the balance of the 4 strings through the guitar pickup is very good for a lows-heavy beefy guitar tone.
I like humbuckers more than single-coils usually.

Things I dislike about my current setup: the popsicle-stick pickup is kind of garbage and needs to be boosted. It'd be nice to get it hotter. I'm also not a huge fan of my own routing skills, so something that wouldn't require a lot of hacking on the instrument body and pickguard would also be good. (I'm talking to a luthier friend, but the way he's describing it, I'm just as likely to get a stock instrument and have him help me set it up instead of a custom thing)

[Bubba]

How can you tune a 3 string guitar to four different notes?

[vomitHatSteve]

How can you tune a 3 string guitar to four different notes?

3 guitar strings, 1 bass string.

[muttley]

Problem is I know pretty much none of the math! And not much more of the wiring. Would two lead wires and a single ground mean I'm somehow connecting two jacks to three wires?

There isnt much math involved. Its all about how traditional pickups work and how you would relate it to this application.

In essence all a pickup is, is a coil of copper wire in a magnetic field. From our basic physics 101 we know that when we move a ferromagnetic metal through that field then an electric current is induced.. Its that that we translate into our sound wave. Many things influence the nature of that electric current/signal. The degree of movement, the strength of the magnet, the shape of the magnetic field and the resulting inducted signal depends on all of them. If you have two independent magnetic fields and two independent signals they are to some degree going to play on each other. The two are going to have an affect on each other. The way to avoid that is to move them further apart. Having them in a single enclosure would mean that they would have a larger affect on each other. That may not be a bad thing but it isnt what you have right now...

It sounds to me that what you have right now is two pickups which go to two independent jack sockets. The ground or earth "should" be common to both for a number of reason which arent really relevant here.

In short we could design a pickup that sends signals to the jack arrangement you have there and from whatever coil you wanted but the closer together the magnets and coils the more they would impact on each other. Thats how we get hum cancelling in pickups, by using one coil to cancel out the extraneous noise of the other... A little more complex that that but essentially thats what happens.

Make sense?

I just did some comparisons of actual levels, and the bass string does provide about the same signal strength as any of the others, it just sounds much quieter (especially through guitar heads). I've got a second - much shorter-scale - bass that I've strung and tuned the same way. It has the same sort of mid-body split pickup and produces a very similar sound through the same amps.

Several things you could be causing that. The mostly likely would be that the Popsicle stick pup has much less copper in the coil and fewer turns so the output is lower, also the magnet strength may not be high enough. Remember our hearing is logarithmic in nature so we dont really get a true representation of amplitude as the output increases.. Without seeing and measuring what you have thats just a guess though.

So the things I like about the current setup: the balance of the 4 strings through the guitar pickup is very good for a lows-heavy beefy guitar tone.
I like humbuckers more than single-coils usually.

I cant help thinking that to get this to work well you would be using single coil and with any luck you would get some humcancelling from the two together.

Things I dislike about my current setup: the popsicle-stick pickup is kind of garbage and needs to be boosted. It'd be nice to get it hotter.

Thats what I was talking about above re- number of copper turns and magnet strength...

I'm also not a huge fan of my own routing skills, so something that wouldn't require a lot of hacking on the instrument body and pickguard would also be good. (I'm talking to a luthier friend, but the way he's describing it, I'm just as likely to get a stock instrument and have him help me set it up instead of a custom thing)

Its not really a "luthier" thing. Although I am predominantly a luthier I'd approach this from a physics point of view.. As such we are probably need to have to do a few talk throughs and then try a few things out. The easiest way to do that would be to have a cheap test bed instrument that we could mount various pickguards on with various test pups. The instrument would have a large well or void under the pickgaurd so we could mount stuff where we wanted.... By its very nature this would be a trial and error thing... Once you get close to what works you would then start to design it around a final instrument.. Thats when the setup and final tinkering would happen. Thats how I would do it anyway.

[vomitHatSteve]

It sounds to me that what you have right now is two pickups which go to two independent jack sockets.

Correct.

I just did some comparisons of actual levels, and the bass string does provide about the same signal strength as any of the others, it just sounds much quieter (especially through guitar heads). I've got a second - much shorter-scale - bass that I've strung and tuned the same way. It has the same sort of mid-body split pickup and produces a very similar sound through the same amps.

Several things you could be causing that. The mostly likely would be that the Popsicle stick pup has much less copper in the coil and fewer turns so the output is lower, also the magnet strength may not be high enough. Remember our hearing is logarithmic in nature so we dont really get a true representation of amplitude as the output increases.. Without seeing and measuring what you have thats just a guess though.

Sorry, I was describing just the "guitar" pickup without the signal from the dedicated "bass" pickup.

I cant help thinking that to get this to work well you would be using single coil and with any luck you would get some humcancelling from the two together.

That's fair.

Its not really a "luthier" thing. Although I am predominantly a luthier I'd approach this from a physics point of view.. As such we are probably need to have to do a few talk throughs and then try a few things out. The easiest way to do that would be to have a cheap test bed instrument that we could mount various pickguards on with various test pups. The instrument would have a large well or void under the pickgaurd so we could mount stuff where we wanted.... By its very nature this would be a trial and error thing... Once you get close to what works you would then start to design it around a final instrument.. Thats when the setup and final tinkering would happen. Thats how I would do it anyway.

Alright.
What's the name for someone who builds instrument bodies? I'd thought it was luthier, but there's a lot of words I use wrong!

[muttley]

Alright.
What's the name for someone who builds instrument bodies? I'd thought it was luthier, but there's a lot of words I use wrong!

Yep but luthiers do not traditionally build pickups... Guitar bodies yes. Discussing building a pickup and discussing building a guitar body are different skill sets..

[vomitHatSteve]

Oh, I was using it right then. Talking to you re: the pup, and talking to the luthier re: a body to put it on.

[muttley]

Oh, I was using it right then. Talking to you re: the pup, and talking to the luthier re: a body to put it on.

Ah right, I see, I thought you were quizzing him about the mechanics of the pup.. my bad.

I've been thinking it over and TBH, I think you would be best not to try and house it in one casing if you want to keep the same sort of sound you've got now. To do so would be quite a compromise. Think of it like putting two mics next to each other and recording two tracks. One is going to bleed all over the other no matter ho rig it. If I have understood what you want to do then keeping some separation would be better. If you didnt you'd be sending pretty much the same signal to each jack output. Maybe I've misunderstood...

[vomitHatSteve]

If I have understood what you want to do then keeping some separation would be better. If you didnt you'd be sending pretty much the same signal to each jack output. Maybe I've misunderstood...

Yeah, some separation is the goal.
You think they'd interfere with each other that much? Dang!

[muttley]

That would be my gut instinct. The magnetic field is going to mess with each other. The only other way would be to use just one magnet and two coils with a separate output going each jack. That would work as you could fashion the coils to a shape and wind that would sound distinct to a degree.

[vomitHatSteve]

The only other way would be to use just one magnet and two coils with a separate output going each jack.

That's actually what I'd been picturing. (or rather one bar with 4 magnets, since the "bass" coil wouldn't need to need to wrap around the "guitar" magnets)

[muttley]

The only other way would be to use just one magnet and two coils with a separate output going each jack.

That's actually what I'd been picturing. (or rather one bar with 4 magnets, since the "bass" coil wouldn't need to need to wrap around the "guitar" magnets)

Ive got a few ideas which I will flesh out over the weekend and next week. Been thinking about it this week..

[WhiskeyJack]

Is this coming to life?