Mixing a vocal performance that goes from quiet to loud.

[WhiskeyJack]

Rebels.

I am trying to suss out a final mix on my stupid Recording Challenge #2. After walking away from it for a few months then having it pop up in my playlist on my last road trip i heard stuff i wanted to fix / hated about it

I am almost there but one really really big problem with this is that my main vocal track has a few problems. Most notably the first few lines of each verse is sort of quiet, and the the last few lines are pretty much bellowed / hollered / shouted. Needless to say i thought i had better mic technique for this i.e. closer up for the quieter parts, backed off a bit for the louder parts, but i very clearly did not back off the mic anywhere near enough.

I am curious to know how you guys might go about mixing a mess like that. I have tried a few different things

-stacking compressors, and eq's
-one compressor slamming right down on it
-a mix of random presets. (worst)

nothing is really making me happy. The stacking of comps, treatments and EQ's and stuff sort of get's me there but it sort of robs the whole thing of any kind of dynamics. Especially when i add in the vocal reverb. It sort of get's a bit muddy. Which i may in fact be doing way wrong too. I think i need to send my vocals to the reverb POST everything else i treat the vocals with. Am i thinking about this correctly? I just really want to have the final mix not a shit show of vocals fading in and out or jumping right out at the listener.

Re-tracking the whole thing is not at all on my list of things to do but if that would be your answer then i'll hear it. I just may not act on it.

[vomitHatSteve]

Can you do it in automation? If not, I usually mix the dry track and a heavily-compressed version. And/or stack a bunch of extra copies of the vocal.

Failing those, you might have to retrack.

[Greg_L]

I think i need to send my vocals to the reverb POST everything else i treat the vocals with. Am i thinking about this correctly?

Yes yes yes. Compressing reverb gets ugly. Put the reverb last.

What you need to do is automate, or compress the shit out of the vocal track. I like super compressed vocals, so that's what I'd do. The right compressor and settings will work perfectly. What that is? I don't know. You gotta fiddle with some plug-ins.

[Farview]

I would create a new track/channel and move the quiet parts to that track. Then you can compress each part appropriately without affecting the other part. It's much easier than trying to find a one size fits all compressor setting on one track.

[WhiskeyJack]

I think i need to send my vocals to the reverb POST everything else i treat the vocals with. Am i thinking about this correctly?

Yes yes yes. Compressing reverb gets ugly. Put the reverb last.

What you need to do is automate, or compress the shit out of the vocal track. I like super compressed vocals, so that's what I'd do. The right compressor and settings will work perfectly. What that is? I don't know. You gotta fiddle with some plug-ins.

I have zero experience with automation. Might be a fun exercise to start learning i would guess. Do you mean like automate the fader or something?

When you say compress the shit out of a vocal track do you mean slam it so hard that the DB meter never really crests past a certain DB ever. Because one attempt i made i got that result and it didn't sound terrible and there was no real tell tale pumping of over compressing. The only reason i i didn't love it was because those loud parts sounded much more, hmm? Saturated and in your face? then the other parts. Which in my mind is going to be inescapable due to mic technique? Proximity effect? Also there was a voice in the back of my head telling me i am stealing dynamics or headroom or whatever but if it sounded pretty ok and the general rule is is if it sounds good it is is good right? Maybe i should just go back to that and put it up in the listening booth.

I would create a new track/channel and move the quiet parts to that track. Then you can compress each part appropriately without affecting the other part. It's much easier than trying to find a one size fits all compressor setting on one track.

This is interesting [mention]Farview[/mention] I can see where you are going with this. It would give me a little more control over the quieter and loud parts most certainly. And in theory, i could do also as greg suggested and compress the heck out of each one of those and then mix them together to taste. Would be faily easy to do still as this song i haven't glued all the performances together yet either. (you could hear the furnace running sometimes in between lines and i edited them all out so each line is pretty much it's own little snip in the daw still)

Lots of good ideas here.

[Greg_L]

I have zero experience with automation. Might be a fun exercise to start learning i would guess. Do you mean like automate the fader or something?

Yes, it's easy to do in Reaper. I don't do it often, but it works when you want it.

When you say compress the shit out of a vocal track do you mean slam it so hard that the DB meter never really crests past a certain DB ever. Because one attempt i made i got that result and it didn't sound terrible and there was no real tell tale pumping of over compressing. The only reason i i didn't love it was because those loud parts sounded much more, hmm? Saturated and in your face? then the other parts. Which in my mind is going to be inescapable due to mic technique? Proximity effect? Also there was a voice in the back of my head telling me i am stealing dynamics or headroom or whatever but if it sounded pretty ok and the general rule is is if it sounds good it is is good right? Maybe i should just go back to that and put it up in the listening booth.

Yes all of that. The hotter parts will sound a little more exaggerated when compressed really hard. If that's a problem, Farview's split-the-track and treat differently idea is very good.

[Armistice]

I spend ages automating the volume on lead vocals and I do have a degree of quiet to loud going, although, knowing it ahead of time I work on the technique a fair bit.

I'll basically get down to the syllable level if I have to - all depends upon the musical context.

[WhiskeyJack]

Hmmm. I'll have to into the deep end of youtube to start looking at this automation business. Thanks armi

[Armistice]

It's not nearly complicated enough to require a YouTube video explanation.

Add envelope. Check volume. Start setting points where you want to up / down volume - and move the points and the volume level at will.

Simples.

[WhiskeyJack]

It's not nearly complicated enough to require a YouTube video explanation.

Add envelope. Check volume. Start setting points where you want to up / down volume - and move the points and the volume level at will.

Simples.

I am sure it's easy i have just zero point of reference of where to start. I watched a video though and i thikn what we are calling automation here i am refer to a volume envelope. Lost in translation on my end. I have dabbled with those volume envelopes before, just not for vocals. I'll try and tackle some of this stuff this weekend.

Outdoor Temperature is going to drop right off here in my neck of the woods this weekend / next week so i am not going to be doing a whole heck of a lot much else.

[rayc]

DOUBLE P

[rayc]

I think that is the point scorer of the competition.
You could duplicate the vocal track and slice or automate out the quiet in one and the loud in the other then CRUSH one with compression and slap the other with some as well until the quiet/loud becomes louder than and quieter than instead.
OH, for volume envelopes in REAPER use the preFX option - I'm pretty sure Greg mentioned this - the advantage of this, besides the actual impact it has, is that you'll SEE the amount of reduction or increase in the wave form...
around the 4 minute mark in this vid.
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmfnmvpx2po[/BBvideo]

[JD01]

Ah, just manage it with a string of compressors.
Hi pass after each one cos the compressors will bring the low end back and it'll be minging.

[SweetDan]

An alternative approach [mention]WhiskeyJack[/mention]: slice up the audio track into segments where each section is loud or soft, and adjust the gain of each segment individually until it's roughly what you want.

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KQa5DkVjPU[/BBvideo]

You may have to slice out at each syllable, as [mention]Armistice[/mention] indicated up thread (though he was talking about automation). Then, after the track is adjusted to your liking, add your eq, compressors, reverb, other effects.

[ocnor]

An alternative approach slice up the audio track into segments where each section is loud or soft, and adjust the gain of each segment individually until it's roughly what you want.

That's exactly what I do. You can remove random plosives that way as well.

[WhiskeyJack]

An alternative approach WhiskeyJack: slice up the audio track into segments where each section is loud or soft, and adjust the gain of each segment individually until it's roughly what you want.

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KQa5DkVjPU[/BBvideo]

You may have to slice out at each syllable, as Armistice indicated up thread (though he was talking about automation). Then, after the track is adjusted to your liking, add your eq, compressors, reverb, other effects.

Awesome thanks everyone. I am gong to make some time to dive into this today.

[WhiskeyJack]

OH, for volume envelopes in REAPER use the preFX option - I'm pretty sure Greg mentioned this - the advantage of this, besides the actual impact it has, is that you'll SEE the amount of reduction or increase in the wave form...
around the 4 minute mark in this vid.

This is the missing link right here [mention]rayc[/mention]

As i stated upthread here, i have mucked about with the volume envelopes before but i shy'd away from them becasue i couldn't really see any chnage to the wave form.

Yes, i am well aware that mixing is all an auditory things but these fine tuned adjustments on vocals rarely ever registered with me. I sort of need to see thats happening in these edits.

This new to me feature "Take Volume Envelopes" are EXACTLY what i have been thinking i needed. I remember when i was working in the Nuendo DAW and and all edits were visual and like that and I missed it dearly when i jumped to Reaper. Thank you so much sir

Now let's hope i don't butcher it.

[WhiskeyJack]

As a point of reference this is what the vocal track looks like dynamically. It's sort of all over the place. Kinda shitty.

[Bill L]

OH, for volume envelopes in REAPER use the preFX option - I'm pretty sure Greg mentioned this - the advantage of this, besides the actual impact it has, is that you'll SEE the amount of reduction or increase in the wave form...
around the 4 minute mark in this vid.

This is the missing link right here @rayc

As i stated upthread here, i have mucked about with the volume envelopes before but i shy'd away from them becasue i couldn't really see any chnage to the wave form.

Yes, i am well aware that mixing is all an auditory things but these fine tuned adjustments on vocals rarely ever registered with me. I sort of need to see thats happening in these edits.

This new to me feature "Take Volume Envelopes" are EXACTLY what i have been thinking i needed. I remember when i was working in the Nuendo DAW and and all edits were visual and like that and I missed it dearly when i jumped to Reaper. Thank you so much sir

Now let's hope i don't butcher it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you will see a change in the wave form using a volume envelope. You are basically riding the fader. If you were editing and amplifying certain sections then you would see a change in the wave.

[WhiskeyJack]

This is the missing link right here @rayc

As i stated upthread here, i have mucked about with the volume envelopes before but i shy'd away from them becasue i couldn't really see any chnage to the wave form.

Yes, i am well aware that mixing is all an auditory things but these fine tuned adjustments on vocals rarely ever registered with me. I sort of need to see thats happening in these edits.

This new to me feature "Take Volume Envelopes" are EXACTLY what i have been thinking i needed. I remember when i was working in the Nuendo DAW and and all edits were visual and like that and I missed it dearly when i jumped to Reaper. Thank you so much sir

Now let's hope i don't butcher it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you will see a change in the wave form using a volume envelope. You are basically riding the fader. If you were editing and amplifying certain sections then you would see a change in the wave.

You are correct Bill. The way i always used to do it (and that i didn't love) in reaper was to add that volume envelope under the track and try to tweak it there. This thing here:



Doing it that way i never saw any visual change in the wave form. And in terms of what my ears were picking up I heard very little change. Now, to my own discredit it may have been because when i was trying that i was doing it wrong and to a wet track that had some effects on it? I don't know. But i just didn't like doing it that way.

Now the method that RayC linked to in his video at around the 4 min mark it goes over the "Take Volume Envelope" method and doing this way does in fact let you see the change to the wave form as you work along. I know it is a cardinal sin to mix with your eyes rather than your ears but at least doing it this way leaves me with a visual reference point of the bits that i know i like the sound of so i can sort of reign stuff in and around that point.

Visual Confidence so to speak.

Riding the fader is a term i have heard lots but i have never done. I always tried to just use the envelope or compressors. When i got into DIY home recording hot and heavy everything seemed to be transitioning to digital boxes or computers and very rapidly so if there was a plug in to help me out why bother learning "older" techniques.

Totally regret that decision