Bouncy Basketball Kick

[JD01]

Someone, Greg I think, pointed this out to me in one of my mixes recently - I've got part of the way to sorting it - but not I'm hearing it everywhere and its really irritating me!

I just put on Man In The Box by Alice In Chains, 'cos its got a great vocal... the only thing I could hear when I listened to it was the basketball kick!

Has anyone else noticed something in their own mixes that they're trying correct and then noticed it in loads of other mixes?

[Greg_L]

I stopped comparing my mixes to other mixes a long time ago. It's a useful practice but ultimately I just decided that for me it's not something I want to do anymore. I just focus on optimizing my own process and let the chips fall where they may. My sounds are mine and that's just how it is.

I do hear a lot of stuff in other mixes that I don't like, but that's just personal preference, not right or wrong. Snare sounds, guitar tones, kick drums, whatever. The majority of the stuff I listen to for pleasure is not really all that great sounding from a technical mix perspective. Early punk albums don't really sound all that great. But they are great. They're great just as they are, and if they sounded more polished and perfect maybe they wouldn't be so great. So I don't worry about it.

[Lt. Bob]

Has anyone else noticed something in their own mixes that they're trying correct and then noticed it in loads of other mixes?

I really don't tend to listen to music analytically ..... to me all music is arbitrary sounds ..... I truly don't believe in 'rules' and I don't think I've ever mixed any song ever looking for a specific sound ...... I simply try to make everything legible.

I would never, for example, listen to T of P or The Monkees or Pink Floyd or Merle Haggard and think, "Man .... that kick doesn't sound good" .... it sounds like they recorded/mixed it and is part of the song.

Here I'll notice and comment ( ONLY if something really sounds off to me ) because that's kinda the point of having us listen to mixes.
But outside of that I never pay any attention to mixes.

[JD01]

I stopped comparing my mixes to other mixes a long time ago. It's a useful practice but ultimately I just decided that for me it's not something I want to do anymore. I just focus on optimizing my own process and let the chips fall where they may. My sounds are mine and that's just how it is.

I do hear a lot of stuff in other mixes that I don't like, but that's just personal preference, not right or wrong. Snare sounds, guitar tones, kick drums, whatever. The majority of the stuff I listen to for pleasure is not really all that great sounding from a technical mix perspective. Early punk albums don't really sound all that great. But they are great. They're great just as they are, and if they sounded more polished and perfect maybe they wouldn't be so great. So I don't worry about it.

Yeah - I don't think I'll really worry about it in future, its weird - it was something I've been working on lately then I put this on and it stuck out like a sore thumb! The vocal on that track is still brilliant though - mix wise its not as good as the later high budget grunge stuff. There's still some great tracks on the album though. I guess its a bit like when Jimmy Page said that when he listens to "Since I've Been Loving You" all he can hear now is the squeaky kick pedal. Hopefully I'll get over it.

I do find it helpful though to listen to mixes, good or bad, and try and work out what it is that I do/don't like. True North is really good and it sounds kind of achievable in a home setting 'cos its a pretty dry tight sound. In Utero is another favourite mix of mine but I think that's totally unachievable without a brilliant drummer smacking the fuck out of great drums in a good room with heaps of mics.

There's loads of relatively poor quality recording/mixing jobs that I really like 'cos the songs are so good. Early Wipers stuff, I think he knew what he was doing but was working on a shoestring budget. Green River is like that too. Countless 80s punk albums, I don't think Bad Religion got a really decent sound until Against The Grain.

[JD01]

Has anyone else noticed something in their own mixes that they're trying correct and then noticed it in loads of other mixes?

I really don't tend to listen to music analytically ..... to me all music is arbitrary sounds ..... I truly don't believe in 'rules' and I don't think I've ever mixed any song ever looking for a specific sound ...... I simply try to make everything legible.

I would never, for example, listen to T of P or The Monkees or Pink Floyd or Merle Haggard and think, "Man .... that kick doesn't sound good" .... it sounds like they recorded/mixed it and is part of the song.

Here I'll notice and comment ( ONLY if something really sounds off to me ) because that's kinda the point of having us listen to mixes.
But outside of that I never pay any attention to mixes.

I mostly agree with you Bob, but I do try and listen analytically 'cos it helps me achieve the sound in my head which I'm not always sure how to dial in.
You're a way better player/listener than I'll ever be, when you record you're probably getting exactly the sound you want without even thinking about it.

[Greg_L]

Yeah - I don't think I'll really worry about it in future, its weird - it was something I've been working on lately then I put this on and it stuck out like a sore thumb! The vocal on that track is still brilliant though - mix wise its not as good as the later high budget grunge stuff. There's still some great tracks on the album though. I guess its a bit like when Jimmy Page said that when he listens to "Since I've Been Loving You" all he can hear now is the squeaky kick pedal. Hopefully I'll get over it.

I reluctantly listened to Man In The Box. I don't hear that kick sound as basketbally. It sounds like a pretty standard rock kick drum from that time period.

[JD01]

Yeah - I don't think I'll really worry about it in future, its weird - it was something I've been working on lately then I put this on and it stuck out like a sore thumb! The vocal on that track is still brilliant though - mix wise its not as good as the later high budget grunge stuff. There's still some great tracks on the album though. I guess its a bit like when Jimmy Page said that when he listens to "Since I've Been Loving You" all he can hear now is the squeaky kick pedal. Hopefully I'll get over it.

I reluctantly listened to Man In The Box. I don't hear that kick sound as basketbally. It sounds like a pretty standard rock kick drum from that time period.

Ah, fair enough. Sounds really basketbally to me, sounds like what I'm trying to avoid! Great vocal though.

[Greg_L]

Ah, fair enough. Sounds really basketbally to me, sounds like what I'm trying to avoid! Great vocal though.

Ok so what is a kick drum sound you want to achieve?

[Lt. Bob]

I really don't tend to listen to music analytically ..... to me all music is arbitrary sounds ..... I truly don't believe in 'rules' and I don't think I've ever mixed any song ever looking for a specific sound ...... I simply try to make everything legible.

I would never, for example, listen to T of P or The Monkees or Pink Floyd or Merle Haggard and think, "Man .... that kick doesn't sound good" .... it sounds like they recorded/mixed it and is part of the song.

Here I'll notice and comment ( ONLY if something really sounds off to me ) because that's kinda the point of having us listen to mixes.
But outside of that I never pay any attention to mixes.

I mostly agree with you Bob, but I do try and listen analytically 'cos it helps me achieve the sound in my head which I'm not always sure how to dial in.
You're a way better player/listener than I'll ever be, when you record you're probably getting exactly the sound you want without even thinking about it.

well in fairness I guess that at one time I listened more analytically ...... I've been deep into audiophilia since I was 12 .... stereos and getting them to sound good was always a parallel activity alongside playing.

So even though I don't really remember doing it I must have been paying attention to the sounds.
After all, I listened for the differences between moving coil and moving magnet carts and stuff like that gets into tiny subtle differences.

Maybe my old ears don't hear well enough to tell anymore!

[JD01]

Ah, fair enough. Sounds really basketbally to me, sounds like what I'm trying to avoid! Great vocal though.

Ok so what is a kick drum sound you want to achieve?

I don't mind my kick sound, but its a bit "non-descript" I'd like it to have a more impact and body but without it sounding boomy - you know how things cloud a whole mix. My kick is OK, but its a bit boxy/small sounding.

JD Kick.mp3

This shows the In Utero drum sound in relative isolation

There's not much going on at the start of this and the kick sounds huge. But its the sort of thing that could also be really boomy and just be a big dark cloud over the bottom of the mix, but it isn't for some reason.

[Greg_L]

That's the benefit and also danger of comparisons to professionally recorded music. There's nothing particularly special about the In Utero drum sound. That sounds like regular ol drums recorded in a room. But listen to the reverb. The In Utero drum track isn't dripping in artificial long-decay reverb. It's got room, but not much tail to it. That sounds like real drums in a real room as opposed to sample drums with reverb plug-in slapped all over it. It has a huge effect on everything.

And then listen to the kicks. If we're comparing them, your kick has a higher fundamental pitch to it. It does sound "smaller" because it very well may be smaller. I don't know what size bass drum Dave Grohl used, but it sounds big-ish and it's tuned flat and it's clearly muffled. If it want a flatter punch, lose all that reverb and use a different kick drum sample.

[JD01]

That's the benefit and also danger of comparisons to professionally recorded music. There's nothing particularly special about the In Utero drum sound. That sounds like regular ol drums recorded in a room. But listen to the reverb. The In Utero drum track isn't dripping in artificial long-decay reverb. It's got room, but not much tail to it. That sounds like real drums in a real room as opposed to sample drums with reverb plug-in slapped all over it. It has a huge effect on everything.

And then listen to the kicks. If we're comparing them, your kick has a higher fundamental pitch to it. It does sound "smaller" because it very well may be smaller. I don't know what size bass drum Dave Grohl used, but it sounds big-ish and it's tuned flat and it's clearly muffled. If it want a flatter punch, lose all that reverb and use a different kick drum sample.

Cheers, I'll have a good listen again and try and do a bit more work on it. I think what you've described is exactly what I like so much about the In Utero sound - it sounds like listening to a drummer in the room.

There's no reverb on my kick, I guess its being picked up elsewhere. Not sure how to shortened my reverb tail but I'll have a fiddle with stuff.
Just realised, I may be able to pitch shift my kick down in the software - its not something I've ever messed with before, but it might be useful here.

[rayc]

I hear Kick Drum Click all over the place and it really only bothers me when I record. ITB drums seem to have overindulged in kick click when recording. I do listen analytically, to the mix of stuff I hear, for a few moments - particularly when the song isn't holding my attention.
I was listening to a Misfits retrospective a few days back. The better the recording & mixing the worse the songs. I almost hate the sound of their early stuff BUT I love the songs and my dislike of the sound dissipates as the song holds my attention.

[Tadpui]

@JD01 if I remember correctly you're using Superior. There is a control for each kit piece to pitch it up or down (maybe just the drums, maybe not the cymbals). I only ever used it a couple of times so I don't recall how realistic it is when you really start pitching things one way or the other by more than a few cents.

I've been on a quest to figure out what it is that I love in a kick drum sound. And I think that I've narrowed it down lately. I think it's the "inside" mic that I don't care for. That's where I end up getting the basketball sound, and the main thing that people are after with an inside mic is the beater "click". And I hate a clicky kick sound. I'm after more of a "smack". I've toyed with miking the batter side of the kick and while I like the sound, it picks up too much bleed from everything else.

I think that the closest thing to an ideal kick sound to me is Bonham. And as far as I can tell that's a non-ported reso head with an "out" mic and maybe a batter side mic to get some of the beater smack.

I've been looking to sit down and spend a weekend (or a week) fiddling with my kick tuning, beater, and mic technique to see if I can start to approach this imaginary ideal sound that I have in my head.

And good luck to you on your venture of finding your kick sound!

[JD01]

@JD01 if I remember correctly you're using Superior. There is a control for each kit piece to pitch it up or down (maybe just the drums, maybe not the cymbals). I only ever used it a couple of times so I don't recall how realistic it is when you really start pitching things one way or the other by more than a few cents.

I've been on a quest to figure out what it is that I love in a kick drum sound. And I think that I've narrowed it down lately. I think it's the "inside" mic that I don't care for. That's where I end up getting the basketball sound, and the main thing that people are after with an inside mic is the beater "click". And I hate a clicky kick sound. I'm after more of a "smack". I've toyed with miking the batter side of the kick and while I like the sound, it picks up too much bleed from everything else.

I think that the closest thing to an ideal kick sound to me is Bonham. And as far as I can tell that's a non-ported reso head with an "out" mic and maybe a batter side mic to get some of the beater smack.

I've been looking to sit down and spend a weekend (or a week) fiddling with my kick tuning, beater, and mic technique to see if I can start to approach this imaginary ideal sound that I have in my head.

And good luck to you on your venture of finding your kick sound!

Its pretty elusive isn't it? My tom sounds can be a bit shit too, but I don't often use them as the main part of a beat so I'm not so bothered.
I'm generally happy with my cymbals, getting there with my snare... but the kick is still alluding me.

[JD01]

OK - I've made some alterations here, fairly major ones.
There's no reverb on any overheads of rooms mics, a bit less on the snare.
I've massively reduced the bleed of snare and kick (yes, the was a lot of kick bleed into the rooms). I've reduced the snare bottom mic and changed the kick drum to 18x22" from a 16x20".

Still sounds pretty roomy but it doesn't have that feeling of a massive reverb tail on the snare which was coming from excessive bleed into the room mics. I could probably reduce it even more.

JD Drums 2.mp3

[Greg_L]

OK - I've made some alterations here, fairly major ones.
There's no reverb on any overheads of rooms mics, a bit less on the snare.
I've massively reduced the bleed of snare and kick (yes, the was a lot of kick bleed into the rooms). I've reduced the snare bottom mic and changed the kick drum to 18x22" from a 16x20".

Still sounds pretty roomy but it doesn't have that feeling of a massive reverb tail on the snare which was coming from excessive bleed into the room mics. I could probably reduce it even more.

JD Drums 2.mp3

I think that's better. It's got less tail on it for sure.

[JD01]

OK - I've made some alterations here, fairly major ones.
There's no reverb on any overheads of rooms mics, a bit less on the snare.
I've massively reduced the bleed of snare and kick (yes, the was a lot of kick bleed into the rooms). I've reduced the snare bottom mic and changed the kick drum to 18x22" from a 16x20".

Still sounds pretty roomy but it doesn't have that feeling of a massive reverb tail on the snare which was coming from excessive bleed into the room mics. I could probably reduce it even more.

JD Drums 2.mp3

I think that's better. It's got less tail on it for sure.

Yeah, I'm gonna continue to tweak away and put a remix together of the whole song later.

I've made a few more tweaks here and there but the main thing was reducing the snare bleed in the various room mics. I'd ended up with this 80s cock-rock snare. Disaster