ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

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Lt. Bob
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ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

wellll .... I'm building a 335 ...... prolly months before I'm through.
It's a kit from Guitar Fetish ...... cheapish stuff ....... I don't care.

I already have some p'ups ..... some old Bill Lawrence that even Bill Lawrence couldn't identify ...... I would have gotten them in the late 70's .... don't remember much about them.

4 wire so I was maybe gonna do a coil split although I haven't decided for sure if I want to bother. The guitar will probably mostly sit in its case like all my gits besides the Stinnett do. But I'd like for it to call me and compete with the Stinnett for playing time.

I have the Lawrence p'ups laying around so I was gonna use them.

I would be curious what you might think would be a good mutt p'up.

I don't want high gain .... I want a clear rich, almost acoustic sound with bell tones and good sustain.
Would need to fit in a humbucker hole but I'm not averse to P90s ..... not averse to buckers either though.

Any thoughts?
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

Some of the first pickups I wound were sets for a Tele and it was how good they turned out that made me want to pursue it longer term. The ones I came up with had that crisp tele sound but also had a really warm Jazz blue note hint to them on the front pickup. The bridge had all the classic chicken pickin there as well as being really clear with good separation. That Tele is one of my go to gigging guitars to this day about 5 years on. I have a spare set of those pickups around some where. I'll look them up and my notes and see if I can find any clips...
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Lt. Bob
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

ummmm, I'm talking 'bout the 335 I'm building ..... I doubt tele p'ups are gonna work with that.
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muttley
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

My bad,

I thought you were building a Tele...Thats speed reading and old age for yoo. I'll read it properly this time....:)
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

What existing route for pups does this kit have in it? You say Bucker but I assume it also has two and are they on a centre stick or floating?
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Lt. Bob
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

muttley wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:48 am My bad,

I thought you were building a Tele...Thats speed reading and old age for yoo. I'll read it properly this time....:)
lol .... that's ok. I DID build a tele ..... that was quite a while ago though.

muttley wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:49 am What existing route for pups does this kit have in it? You say Bucker but I assume it also has two and are they on a centre stick or floating?
it's two ..... and it's traditional 335 .... block of wood in the center. The p'up routes are totally in the block.
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

Ok, got it. I knew was doing a Tele thats where I got it from.. I'm living in the past mate..

So I know you do a lot of versatile playing much like I do and I have to say that these days I lean more and more towards the p90 style for a lot of what I do. If you are after the hollow body Blues "Lucille" type sound then it's humbuckers all the way. If you want more "hollow body" or "more wood" as I call it I would say slightly underwound p90's in a vintage style with Alnico II, they introduce more clarity and separation.. Maybe have one of each with the p90 in the bridge and bucker in the neck.? If you want something off the wall you may remember that HR design build I did? I designed and built a bar pole piece p90 that turned out really chimey and clear sounding in the neck, I haven't had time to play about with the design for a while but I intend to. I think it could work well...... I could maybe send you one for a demo once you have the thing together and you've explored the Lawrence pups. I have to say I have used his stuff on archtops and I was a bit mehhh.... I stuck with Kent Armstrong until I started winding my own. That said it's really about personal preference and what you are gonna be playing which is why I rarely wade in on individual merits of any guitar or amp...
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Lt. Bob
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

My tendencies:
Like you I play all styles ..... I may go from Twangy Merle Haggard to Hendrix to George Benson to Santana all in one set.

I like chimey and clear.
I also like woody.

I rarely use bridge p'ups because they are so often spikey sounding and harsh .... I would love to find a bridge pup I liked but I usually don't like them that much.
I tend to use the middle position or the neck 85% of the time. A bridge pup I like would be a revelation and welcomed.

I have no strong opinions about P90 vs bucker but on my stinnet which uses P-Rails I tend to leave the neck pup on P90 and the bridge on bucker.
I also rarely use tone controls leaving them wide open always if that tells you anything.

There will be no demos .... YOU may call it a demo but .... lol ..... whatever I put in there will stay in there forever.

So feel free to use your best judgement and if I can afford them they'll be what goes in the 335 and will be the subject of "What the hell are those?" upon my death.

Oh, not super important but can you do cream instead of black?
The git is a very white maple and I'm planning on going with clear knobs and trying to keep that extremely light wood shade throughout.
Black p'ups would prolly change how I went with that.
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

I am not a bridge pickup fan either largely for similar reasons. It's not so much a thing with the type of pickup or the guitar but more where the pickup is reading off the string. I think to control that spikey harsh sounding output on the bridge pickup I think needs something that just tweaks the sound down a bit, much like bass players tend to go "woolly" when they have too much high end. If it were me I would go with a bucker with a balanced coil output and split them in case you still wanted that bite and snap at any point. That would also give you some options when blending them with the front pickup which it sounds like me, you do quite a bit.

So if it were me I would go p90 vintage style in the neck and a fairly modest bucker in the bridge. The only other option for the bridge I can think of would be a rail style single coil with a tap to cut the output when you wanted to. Maybe a 30% cut so you could just flick one switch and have the rhythm level dialed in as you dont use the vol/tone too much. The rails typically sound quite full and bell like..

Cream is not problem as with all normally available cover finishes. Most are readily available. Even making up wooden covers is something I can do quite easily. Then you get to choose what suits. I have seen white covers out there as well but I dont like the look of them. Thats just me though...
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by ido1957 »

Very little experience on pickups so I'll just say that my Les Paul Custom pickups (490/498 something or other) do have some of your requirements.
Bridge is quite brittle unless you trim back the tone and volume. Neck is the fattest cleanest I've heard, again limited experience. I set it in the middle mostly for a combined sound.
People want something for nothing, they want it right now. Either they can't tell quality or don't care but feel it is important that everyone agrees with them.
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Lt. Bob
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

muttley wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:03 am I am not a bridge pickup fan either largely for similar reasons. It's not so much a thing with the type of pickup or the guitar but more where the pickup is reading off the string. I think to control that spikey harsh sounding output on the bridge pickup I think needs something that just tweaks the sound down a bit, much like bass players tend to go "woolly" when they have too much high end. If it were me I would go with a bucker with a balanced coil output and split them in case you still wanted that bite and snap at any point. That would also give you some options when blending them with the front pickup which it sounds like me, you do quite a bit.

So if it were me I would go p90 vintage style in the neck and a fairly modest bucker in the bridge.

Cream is not problem as with all normally available cover finishes. Most are readily available. Even making up wooden covers is something I can do quite easily. Then you get to choose what suits. I have seen white covers out there as well but I dont like the look of them. Thats just me though...
sounds like a plan .... I'd be down with all that.
Let me know what it'd cost to make that happen in cream.

I don't know enough about details of things like formers or types of magnet slugs to suggesrt anything although you'll want to discuss that here in the thread because it's also about education ..... but I'm just gonna have to go with what you decide ..... I do think lightly potted rather than heavily. I like to get a ringing sustainy harmonic feedback ..... I wouldn't want to lose that and I almost never play that loud anymore so feedback shouldn't be a problem ALTHOUGH it is a 335 and so might be a bit more prone to feedback.
Once again, I'm gonna trust your guidance.

I think I need to get a better bridge than comes with the kit .... I imagine the kit bridge is pot metal
Last edited by Lt. Bob on Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

I'll PM you with details.

Bridge wise why not go for a trapeze? I think they give a lot more than people credit them with. Are the stop bar holes already drilled?
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

holes are already drilled.
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

OK, maybe we can chat about doing an ebony or maple stop bar. I could knock one up and send it to you try. It wouldnt be any bother. I find that timber at the end of the string can soften some of the harshness of the uppr and mid fequencies. Maybe worth a try as it takes seconds to swap it out at a string change.
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

That's be very cool!
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

That's be very cool!
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

Lt. Bob wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:12 am That's be very cool!
Will try and knock up a suggested spec with reason tomorrow before you hop off to Lollar...;)

I'm out an about most of today with the boys footie this morning, and then two gigs.... No peace for the wicked.
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

good ..... keeps you outta trouble!
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by muttley »

OK Lt, here is what I suggest. Sorry it's a day late, I'm just catching up.

Bridge pickup -

Humbucker with coil split option and an output volume to match the neck pickup.

Alnico II magnet. They are the least "harsh" in terms of tone and are generally warmer and emphasize the mids. They are a little cooler in output terms.
I would put it in an open case as a metal case will also serve to limit some of the highs unless you are dead set on a cream cover. I could also use one if you want.. You can always remove it if you want. I think they also look cool.

Wound with a 42 awg poly copper and only slightly mismatched in turn count to add fizz.

Neck pickup -

some thing along the lines of the Mutt90 I made for bubba.

I'm assuming you dont often go for screaming high break up so I would aim to wind it with 42awg poly wire and use an Alnico 4 in there. They are just a tad lighter sounding than the traditional Alnico 5 in my book. I'd aim for an output of about 8k and then match the bucker to that.

Cream cover as requested.

What that would give you would be a set of pups that you can either plug and play or you could wire it up with the humbucker coils in whatever configuration you want to split them. If you are not adverse to tinkering with the pots and switches I could also put a coil tap on the neck pickup. The main coil being a vintage output at around 7.5k then a further few thousand turns of wire to ramp it up to a full modern p90 spec at around 9.5k. You'd then have loads of switching options, probably too many.

I'll PM the "at cost" figure... It would be the same regardless of coil tapping etc, as that is just time. No extra parts required.
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Re: ok .... a Mutt P'up thread ....

Post by Lt. Bob »

well .... I'll probably just nuy a prewired harness and usually if you go for splitting both have that so may as well have a coil tap on the neck as well as the split on the bridge.

I actually want it to be open without a cover .... when I said cream I kinda meant the bobbin material that shows on an open coil pup.
I'm not really sure what you mean by a cream 'cover' so enlighten me please.

I'll PM ya' back but we're gonna do this so I'll start getting excited now.
I'll PM ya' by tomorrow .... I gotta full plate tonight.

Thanks for putting your pickup thinking cap on for me!
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