Advice from Mutt please

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WhiskeyJack
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Advice from Mutt please

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Hey mutt. Questions for you.

When and why would i use grain filler when finishing a guitar?
When and why would i use sanding sealer?

Here is what prompts these questions:

My plan is to finish the body of a guitar in a solid color top and then dye the sides and back. Still undecided about the neck. I have read various things about grain filling the top amd using samdimg sealer as well because it is solid? Not sure what to think and i dont really want to go buying things i do not need.

The wood is basswood if that helps at all. But i think more or less id be curious to know the answers to those questions. Thanks.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by muttley »

Grain filler is to fill the grain prior to finishing. Sanding sealer is a high build lacquer that is used to build a base on which to put your final finish. Two different things.

If you are going to be staining the sides you need to use a grain filler that is darker than your stain. If you are going to be using a solid colour finish you can use whatever grain filler is easiest and works with your choice of finish.

Both grain filler and sanding sealer are cheap. I use the sanding sealer that matches the lacquer (If I use one) I will be using and for grain filler I almost exclusively use Zpoxy these days. Zpoxy is clear and negates the need for coloured grain filler unless you intend to stain. If you do I would still use a coloured grain filler first for maybe two hits and then switch to zpoxy.

Basswood needs very little grain filler.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by Greg_L »

I have a question about this...

So does the order go...grain filler, sand, sanding sealer, sand, then primer? I know you need to sand grain filler, but do you sand between sanding sealer and primer?
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by muttley »

It largely depends on what finish you are trying to achieve but in principle yes.

Typically my finishing process from bare wood would be.

Depending on timber, raise the grain with a wet cloth and let dry.
Sand back to 1200 grit and raise the grain again
Sand back to 12 grit.

Preparation is Key.

Blow out any dust in the pores

Staining would depend on what filler I was using
Grain fill with filler of choice and sand back to 1200.

Rinse and repeat until surface is flat.

Sanding sealer x3 coats, knock back between coats with 400 grit.

Load up top coat knocking back with 400 grit every couple of coats.

Final two coats would be laid up after making sure everything is perfectly flat and even. Its those last two coats that people will see and if you are burnishing to a shine it's them you work on. Same with solid colours. get them dead flat and then add 2 or 3 top coats of clear to buff out.

The key with finishing lies in three areas.

Prep, not putting too much on in one hit and testing on scarp.

Add lots of patience and you are good.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by WhiskeyJack »

This is awesome and i thank you for spelling it out so simply for my little brain. I am one household project away from starting my telecaster so i am just looking into what sort of products i should look at having on hand to do this. I just ordered a a newbie kit of sand papers. I debated on dropping cash on a fancy sanding block but chose not to. I am sure a hunk of 2x4 or some other wooden block and a firm grip would likely achieve the same affect. I haven't had any luck finding colored grain filler here locally. So i will probably end up ordering it all online i suspect. Sanding sealer seems readily available.

You mentioned that you use a sanding sealer that matches the laquer which sort of begs me to ask this question:

Say i choose a water based grain filler. would i have to use a water based everything else on top of that? Like a water based Sealer and then final water top coat/laquer?

I feel like i should know that already.

I will look around at grain fillers. I think i can visualize what you are talking about. Stewmac seems to have a decent selection of waterbased grain fillers. And it would make sense to go with a darker colored grain. it might bring that boring ass basswood to life a bit more lol.

I was looking at this little kit to play with in terms of the side and back, they are dye versus stains. What are your thoughts? You mentioned stain in your reply and i am curious about stain vs dye. I watched a pretty informative video about stain versus dye, curious your thoughts on this as well.

Stewmac also has these little dudes? I can't figure out if they are stains or dyes?

thanks a million mutt
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by muttley »

I'm gonna stop you rught there.

Lets take another look around all this.

Tell me what EXACTLY are you wanting to do?

That way I can probably steer you in the right direction. Dont get hung up too much on the detail of what is called what and what "Joe woodworker" thinks is the way on you tube. Finishing, and not just in the guitar business, is part Alchemy, part experience and part, technique. There is no one size fits all. There will be plenty out there who would not be happy with the processes I have developed over the years and they would get comparable results.

So before you ask me any more questions let me know in a bit more detail what it is you want to achieve.

On those links.

Both the first set and the StewMac products are almost certainly aniline dyes. A little goes a long way. I use them a lot but get mine from finishing suppliers myself and mix them up into primaries and then into shades. I use alcohol as a carrier rather than water. It;s harder to work them but the alcohol dyes have reportedly better colour fastness. I would support that after many years of using them Water based are good as well and easier to learn with. If they are soluble in water and alcohol they are water soluble dyes not alcohol soluble.

Ignore the second link which is largely inaccurate on some of it's assumptions and incorrect on a lot of other stuff. The trouble with the internet is that a nice little you tube video can make you look and sound like an expert without actually knowing a lot about what you are promoting. What he is trying to describe is the difference between a soluble stain and a suspended stain. Either can be dyes and either can be stains. Aniline dyes are soluble stains in that there are no particles in suspension. The process of colouring the wood is identical whether it is a stain or a dye. If you leave what he terms as a "stain" with suspended particles on your wood you will dye the timber fibres. They are typically less aggressive but also allow more tinkering if time isnt a problem as they act more slowly. The particles just make an infusion with the carrier. If you layer a colour on top of wood or in the lacquer itself, which is what he describes as staining, it is called a tint as you have not altered the properties of the wood.

Now tell me what it is you want to achieve.... :wink:
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by muttley »

If you dont believe me calling him out just read some of his own comments. He admits to no knowledge of alcohol dyes (aniline).... He also refers constantly cross references his own definitions.... :headwall:
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by WhiskeyJack »

muttley wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:55 pm I'm gonna stop you rught there.

Lets take another look around all this.

Tell me what EXACTLY are you wanting to do?

That way I can probably steer you in the right direction. Dont get hung up too much on the detail of what is called what and what "Joe woodworker" thinks is the way on you tube. Finishing, and not just in the guitar business, is part Alchemy, part experience and part, technique. There is no one size fits all. There will be plenty out there who would not be happy with the processes I have developed over the years and they would get comparable results.

So before you ask me any more questions let me know in a bit more detail what it is you want to achieve.

On those links.

Both the first set and the StewMac products are almost certainly aniline dyes. A little goes a long way. I use them a lot but get mine from finishing suppliers myself and mix them up into primaries and then into shades. I use alcohol as a carrier rather than water. It;s harder to work them but the alcohol dyes have reportedly better colour fastness. I would support that after many years of using them Water based are good as well and easier to learn with. If they are soluble in water and alcohol they are water soluble dyes not alcohol soluble.

Ignore the second link which is largely inaccurate on some of it's assumptions and incorrect on a lot of other stuff. The trouble with the internet is that a nice little you tube video can make you look and sound like an expert without actually knowing a lot about what you are promoting. What he is trying to describe is the difference between a soluble stain and a suspended stain. Either can be dyes and either can be stains. Aniline dyes are soluble stains in that there are no particles in suspension. The process of colouring the wood is identical whether it is a stain or a dye. If you leave what he terms as a "stain" with suspended particles on your wood you will dye the timber fibres. They are typically less aggressive but also allow more tinkering if time isnt a problem as they act more slowly. The particles just make an infusion with the carrier. If you layer a colour on top of wood or in the lacquer itself, which is what he describes as staining, it is called a tint as you have not altered the properties of the wood.

Now tell me what it is you want to achieve.... :wink:
HA! Perfect! See this is why i asked! I don't doubt any of what you said so i shant respond. Tho, to a novice like myself, he had a pretty convincing video to be honest. :confused: i know as much about this stuff as i do quantunm physics i just feel a bit more confident about possible wood working skills than i do building a rocket. So i'll try this out. I don't bother with youtube comments so shame on me i guess.

Ok so what i want to do:

1-Solid color top.
2-stained/dyed back sides/back of neck.

Think This:

Image

But instead of a les paul it would be a telecaster. Binding is black, the sides would be darker than the example and the top ... I'm still in the deciding process. some classic fender blue or grey ? (i flip flop. the guitar will let me know when i get that far) not sure what yet. I have been told becasue it's basswood i'm sort of wasting my time if get grain filler and even if i want to stain/dye whatever the back and sides, but i don't really care. this is a learning thing for me and i just want to do it.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by Greg_L »

That's a nice LP. Just get that!
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by jonny deep »

Greg_L wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:44 am That's a nice LP. Just get that!
+1

I quite like those blue ones with the orangey back.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by JD01 »

I asked Mutt about a solid colour recently and he said they were a pain in arse to do at home. Suggested I just take it to a car-body shop for spraying.

The guys at Crimson told me it was a pain in the arse too when I was down there recently.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Greg_L wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:44 am That's a nice LP. Just get that!
If the telecaster goes well a LP and LPjr will be next on my list of things to do.
JD01 wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:04 am I asked Mutt about a solid colour recently and he said they were a pain in arse to do at home. Suggested I just take it to a car-body shop for spraying.

The guys at Crimson told me it was a pain in the arse too when I was down there recently.
Fair. And also not the first time i have heard that but i like a challenge. Walking blindly into something i know nothing about and doing a "decent" job at it isn't foreign to me i usually make out o.k. My entire career is based on just that. didn't know the first thing about geomatics or autocad but i wanted the job. Here i am 10 years later. Also i surprised myself with drywall repair and that sort of stuff.

Can you guys hear the tooting of my horn ok? Or should i blow in it a bit louder? :lollers: :lollers: :like: :happytrees:

But thanks JD for the warning, i have a contingency plan in action. I have a scrap piece of basswood i am working on first and if the solid color does turn out to be a nightmare i will take to a guy here in town and get some help with it.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by JD01 »

I still have it in mind to take my PRS to a body shop at some point. I'm just going to strip off all of the hardware, reshape the headstock with a rasp and get it sprayed up.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by WhiskeyJack »

You could save yourself the trouble and donate it to a school music program and get yourself a grown ups guitar. ? #options
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by muttley »

Ok you will need to properly prep the whole guitar and mask off the binding while you stain and seal.

You will have trouble getting the basswood to look like Mahogany. Your best bet is to prepera few sample pieces that you can work on before you commit to doing the actual guitar. Keep a record of every stage you undertake so you can replicate it EXACTLY on the guitar.

For the top.
Mask off everything except the top, leave the binding and scrap it back once you have the colour on.
I would prep to 1200 grit, raise the grain, 1200 grit again.

Grain fill with zpoxy x 2/3 hits and sand back between with 600 grit and finish with 1200.
Spray a base sealer coat of primer and flat back with 600 grit.
Hit it with 3 or 4 light coats of colour until you have an even clean solid coulour with no dust or marks. If you get dust in there knock it back and start again.
Lightly load up your choice of top coat that works with the base coat.
12 to 15 coats of clear should give you enough to flat out and buff it out.
The last two or three coats should go on after flating back the build up so far and AFTER you have stained/dyed the back and sides.
The final coats should be even and not fat or lean and cover the entire instrument.


so...

Leave it for at least a week, preferably longer until the finish has had time to gas off and will not mark or print..

I assume you would have prepped the back and sides at the same time so now apply your coloured grain filler. Needs to be darker than your stain.
Sand back to 1200 rinse and repeat, stain/dye, knock back any raised grain (called denibbing) and then apply sanding sealer, 2 or 3 light coats. Lightly sand back to 400 and go on with top coat 10 to 12 coats, flating back as you go.

Clean up the binding with a razor blade to remove any stain or marks. You may need to blow in any ridges that develop. Take time to do it. Its worth it..

Apply the final 2 or 3 top coats as described above and leave it for a few weeks before flatting back and buffing.

Easy.

Test on scrap.

Test on Scrap

Test on scrap.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by muttley »

Also make sure the binding will not react with the lacquers and thinners you will be using....
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by WhiskeyJack »

muttley wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:58 pm Ok you will need to properly prep the whole guitar and mask off the binding while you stain and seal.

You will have trouble getting the basswood to look like Mahogany. Your best bet is to prepera few sample pieces that you can work on before you commit to doing the actual guitar. Keep a record of every stage you undertake so you can replicate it EXACTLY on the guitar.

For the top.
Mask off everything except the top, leave the binding and scrap it back once you have the colour on.
I would prep to 1200 grit, raise the grain, 1200 grit again.

Grain fill with zpoxy x 2/3 hits and sand back between with 600 grit and finish with 1200.
Spray a base sealer coat of primer and flat back with 600 grit.
Hit it with 3 or 4 light coats of colour until you have an even clean solid coulour with no dust or marks. If you get dust in there knock it back and start again.
Lightly load up your choice of top coat that works with the base coat.
12 to 15 coats of clear should give you enough to flat out and buff it out.
The last two or three coats should go on after flating back the build up so far and AFTER you have stained/dyed the back and sides.
The final coats should be even and not fat or lean and cover the entire instrument.


so...

Leave it for at least a week, preferably longer until the finish has had time to gas off and will not mark or print..

I assume you would have prepped the back and sides at the same time so now apply your coloured grain filler. Needs to be darker than your stain.
Sand back to 1200 rinse and repeat, stain/dye, knock back any raised grain (called denibbing) and then apply sanding sealer, 2 or 3 light coats. Lightly sand back to 400 and go on with top coat 10 to 12 coats, flating back as you go.

Clean up the binding with a razor blade to remove any stain or marks. You may need to blow in any ridges that develop. Take time to do it. Its worth it..

Apply the final 2 or 3 top coats as described above and leave it for a few weeks before flatting back and buffing.

Easy.

Test on scrap.

Test on Scrap

Test on scrap.
noted on all accounts. I think i have a wide variety of sandpaper grits on it's way. can't recall for sure what i grabbed last time i was at the lumber yard but i am certain it wasn't as fine as 1200! The multipack i got does have that.
muttley wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:58 pm Lightly load up your choice of top coat that works with the base coat.
12 to 15 coats of clear should give you enough to flat out and buff it out.
Am i giving each a coat a light scuff each time i add a coat of build up? Like of the 12-15 coats of clear am i doing anything at all between each one of those, or only sanding and flatting out the last two or threee ?

Thanks mutt. This is pretty comprehensive overview. So apprciated. I sure i hope it don't end up disappointing us haha.


I have ample scrap basswood to test on.
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Re: Advice from Mutt please

Post by muttley »

You can denib between coats. I tend to do it every 3 or 4 or if I'm working with something that has a lot of transition areas as that is where it tends to raise up. It also depends on what lacquer I use..
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