Is there a particular name for this style?

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Armistice
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Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Armistice »

Think Smashing Pumpkins "Tonight, Tonight" where sections of the song are just being played on the snare and kick, so that relentless pounding of the snare - from about 1.24 in the clip below...

Actually I don't need the name of the style, wondering if anyone knows of any other good song examples?

It's all a bit hard to get right with MIDI as I'm sure you can imagine and I'd like to hear some more real drum versions before I plough in too deep.

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOG3eus4ZSo[/BBvideo]

I'm thinking also bits of Springsteen's "Candy's Room" which is much different from SPs in that there's no real variation - but that's all I can come up with as examples. Want to hear the volume variation in the snare hits and get an idea what the kick's doing and whether there's a rhythm going from just stomping on the closed hat at the same time.

Any actual playing tips I can convert to programming also appreciated...
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Greg_L
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Greg_L »

I don't know if there's a fancy drum technical name for it. I'm sure there is. I'd just call it a "roll".

You can replicate it with MIDI by making the quarter notes "harder" with velocity. That's how a real drummer does it - he hits harder on the notes he wants accented so it isn't just a straight monotone drum roll. Have the kick stomping away also on the quarter notes.

Or wait for a better drummer to explain it. :lollers2:
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Lt. Bob
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Lt. Bob »

Greg_L wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:54 pm I don't know if there's a fancy drum technical name for it. I'm sure there is. I'd just call it a "roll".

You can replicate it with MIDI by making the quarter notes "harder" with velocity. That's how a real drummer does it - he hits harder on the notes he wants accented so it isn't just a straight monotone drum roll. Have the kick stomping away also on the quarter notes.
yeppers ..... one way to maybe visualize it would be the New Orleans 2nd line .... what second line actually is is a matching band cadence but with accents on the 'and of 1 and then the 'and' of 3 ..... ..... so the snare is playing all eighth notes but hitting those accents harder like greg said.
In 2nd line the kick would mirror those accents but in rock stuff the kick simply punds out the 1/4 notes , again ... as greg said.
And, of course, the accents don't have to be on the 'and' of 1 and 3 .... that's just for 2nd line.
They can be wherever the hell you want so there's really a lot of room to do things with that technique.

I'm actually saying the same thing greg did but phrasing it a little differently .... plus we louisianainians get to call it 2nd line which makes us cool!

lol

But think in terms of a marching drum section playing a cadence ... that's the basic concept.
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rammer24
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by rammer24 »

Yep. Greg and Bob got it.

He's playing 16th notes in those parts, though. There's no real technical term for it, other than a "16th note roll" I guess.
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Armistice »

Cool - thanks. It wasn't so much the name that I was worried about, just some examples - I can hear the volume differentiation, obviously, so it's not hard to simulate, just sounds a little sterile as I currently have it. I have plenty of volume changes in the quiet notes too, so it's not "robotic" but it's not quite there.

I wonder if it's physically possible, when you're playing that fast, to just hit the one note with the accent harder, or whether the note immediately before or after, with the other hand, gets sort of dragged along for the ride a little. And this is the sort of stuff a programmer has to think about but a drummer just plays without agonising over.

I tried moving the accent hits forward just a smidge to get a "rushing" sort of feel, but that was just chaotic and the thing lost all its groove so I put them back. I'll continue to tinker and see where it ends up. Cheers.
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by rammer24 »

It's one of the harder things to make sound human when programming because most fake drums don't change "timbre" when they change volume. So, even though you can program the drums to have accents, it might always sound sterile since the hits will still "sound" the same, even if they're not all the same volume. Fake drums have come a long way, so I might be wrong. But I do remember in my days of MIDI drums, that this kind of thing was hard to make sound convincing.

As far as a real drummer playing, it's totally possible to do this kind of thing precisely and put the accents exactly where they need to go.
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by rammer24 »

On a side note, and not that important...I've never understood what the big deal is about these guys. I remember that the Pumpkins were HUGE!!!! And to me it all sounded rather mediocre and far from ground breaking. Just one guy's opinion. Having said that, I wish I was half of succesfull as they were/are.
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by rayc »

I saw the pumpkins live in Sydney when they were huge and they were very disappointing - big bald star in the middle with his big star T shirt so you didn't miss the message and they just angried/hammered through their songs with scant regard for any of the nuance I thought I'd heard on the albums. I bought three albums and gave up.
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Greg_L »

rammer24 wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:57 pm It's one of the harder things to make sound human when programming because most fake drums don't change "timbre" when they change volume. So, even though you can program the drums to have accents, it might always sound sterile since the hits will still "sound" the same, even if they're not all the same volume. Fake drums have come a long way, so I might be wrong. But I do remember in my days of MIDI drums, that this kind of thing was hard to make sound convincing.

As far as a real drummer playing, it's totally possible to do this kind of thing precisely and put the accents exactly where they need to go.
I think this is important. A real drum doesn't have the same voice when you hit it harder and softer. A snare drum in particular will sound wildly different from hit to hit depending on how you lay into it. Soft hits sound warm and subtle, hard hits are tight and cracky. It's not just louder and quieter versions of the same sound like what I think happens with drum samples.

So....maybe use different samples for the soft vs harder hits.
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Greg_L
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Greg_L »

Lt. Bob wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:38 pm
yeppers ..... one way to maybe visualize it would be the New Orleans 2nd line .... what second line actually is is a matching band cadence but with accents on the 'and of 1 and then the 'and' of 3 ..... ..... so the snare is playing all eighth notes but hitting those accents harder like greg said.
In 2nd line the kick would mirror those accents but in rock stuff the kick simply punds out the 1/4 notes , again ... as greg said.
And, of course, the accents don't have to be on the 'and' of 1 and 3 .... that's just for 2nd line.
They can be wherever the hell you want so there's really a lot of room to do things with that technique.

I'm actually saying the same thing greg did but phrasing it a little differently .... plus we louisianainians get to call it 2nd line which makes us cool!

lol

But think in terms of a marching drum section playing a cadence ... that's the basic concept.
Armistice don't know nuthin bout no jazz funeral! :boombox :not worthy: :drums:
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Lt. Bob
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Lt. Bob »

Greg_L wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:47 pm

Armistice don't know nuthin bout no jazz funeral! :boombox :not worthy: :drums:
lol ...... definitely how I wanna leave
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by JD01 »

Armistice, are you using EZ or Superior? Your best best for making a long roll like that sound real is to pick a long roll out of their fill library, copy and paste it to make it longer and then adjust is at necessary.
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Re: Is there a particular name for this style?

Post by Armistice »

JD01 wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:33 am Armistice, are you using EZ or Superior? Your best best for making a long roll like that sound real is to pick a long roll out of their fill library, copy and paste it to make it longer and then adjust is at necessary.
Neither - SSD4 - no MIDI library. I do have Addictive though, may boot that up and see what I can find - I can at least see what they do - and moving hits around onto a new map is simple enough. Good thought!
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