Pick Up Swaps.

Swapping out speakers in cab -OR- putting a hammer though your Line6 Spider? Tell us about it.
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WhiskeyJack
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Pick Up Swaps.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

TL;DR: How can i tell what pick ups i can and can not swap out on my guit with out getting into routing and woodwork?

I dug my old very first guitar that i purchased. (not the zenta sears guitar) It is an 2004 Epiphone LP Standard, Amber Flame top, all parts and electronics are stock Mic stuff. For some reason i had it in my head it wasn't a "great" playing or feeling guitar. it's been sitting in its case for about 2 years with no love. so i dug it out real quick before bed last night and man, It feels good. So good. Needs new strings and the fretboard needs a bath. It's lighter than i would want an LP to be, but it's an MiC Epiphone.

With that said i don't think will ever have a great resale value or investment potential thing but it has sentimental value and i LOVED playing that thing. Sadly it is currently taking a back seat to my LP, Jr Sparrow and Ibanez.

I wanna turn this thing into some dope. make it look and sound sexier than an off the shelf Mic Epi Lp. I like the finish and i think i'll just leave it as is. I already have a nashvile ToM bridge for it but the saddle needs to be slotted. I think i might be able to do that my self.

I wanna spruce up the hardwear that's an easy fix, but electronics i am not sure what i can and can not put in it? i'd really like to put in a custom P90 or something in the bridge and something cool in the neck position but how do i know what i can and can not put in there so i can start shopping?

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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Greg_L »

Well first off, I'm gonna assume it's got humbuckers since it's a Les Paul...even an Epi LP has 'buckers.

So that rules out a real P90. Why? P90s are a totally different shape and require a different rout and even install differently. There's no pickup ring with P90s. They're either soapbar or dog ear. Anyway, a P90 is a no-go unless you wanna cut some wood. You don't.

So what are your options? Well, there are humbucker sized P90s out there. Many of them. All pickup makers make some version of a humbucker sized P90. A P-90 is, after all, just a version of a single coil. The P90 sound generally falls in between a thin single coil and a humbucker. So the bucker sized P90 is one option. Keep in mind, P90s/single coils are noisy. The humbucker was the answer to the P90 noise problem, hence the name. They "buck" the "hum".

Another option is any one of the billions of humbuckers out there that range from low output vintage PAF sound to high output smoldering death gain. The output of the pickup goes a long way towards how an amp reacts to it. A humbucker will drop right in either position with no problem. You just have to choose which one you want. You probably want a neck/bridge combination that go well together. I'm not a neck pickup guy, but I know that most folks want a slightly milder neck pickup because the string power is stronger at the neck position anyway. And the neck sound is generally smoother and fatter. At the bridge you want something that's aggressive and cuts well.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by muttley »

Keep in mind that a P90 humbucker is a separate beast all on its own. They generally do have that p90 sound but a little fatter. Not all p90 humbuckers are equal either. Many of the off the shelf ones are simply downsized coils that are done to pack into a humbucker footprint. For the best bang for buck you probably want to get one from custom winders that aim to keep the coil shape and magnet type as close to p90 spec as possible.

Whatever you decide my instinct is that you will get the best alternative sound from a p90 style rather than another bucker clone. It all depends what you are shooting for. Gerg is partly right in that they are noisier than buckers but paired with a humbucker in the other pocket you can still get some hum cancelling by pairing it with the bucker or with a coil tap on one of the humbucker coils. Both options can be done as well to expand options.

If you want to hang fire for a week or so and you can check out the custom p90 humbucker that I'm doing for Bubba's guitar build. If you are interested I'm winding up a few of them at the moment and could do you a deal on one if you dont mind covering cost and postage. You also have the plus that the pound sterling is crap at the moment so for the first time in years us Brits are export happy..

If you want to stick up other other options you want then I'll try and let you know whats involved in getting it installed and how easy it would be for you..
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Lt. Bob »

I vote for the P90s type although I currently have some interest in the 'wide-tange' Fender 'buckers.
I had an old Starcaster and it had an awesome tone.

As for noise .... my experience is that if you carefully shield it .... a single coil git can be pretty quiet.
I built a tele .... it's all single coil. But I very carefully shielded it (copper tape ) and it's not noisy at all.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Thanks for the info guys.

Yes it currently has some humbuckers, I don't love the way they sound. I think it just sounds a little too thin. Really smooth, but just thin. that could be the cheaper make of pick up? (MiC) Maybe i just don't love that tone for myself. I'll get some pictures up tonight and maybe a tone or two over the weekend sometime? but it isn't anything you haven't seen or heard before.

I suspected that a normal soapbar P90 wouldn't fit in there. But wasn't sure. I knew for sure a dogear one wouldn't fit and really why should it? But i am just kind of using this thread to gather info / education for looking and listening around for what i could put it it.
muttley wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:57 pm It all depends what you are shooting for. . .

As a personal no shame disclaimer: I am a social distortion fan boy. I love the tones they get going. i was RAH RAH P90, because that is what they kept telling people helped carve out their sound. now that i am more of grown ass man (marginally) and not so much a fanboy, I am finding maybe it is i simply prefer single coil sounds versus "A P90" If that makes any sense? So maybe that's what i am searching for? single coil alternatives? My ear seems to like to gravitate towards artists using single coils p'ups. And some of the newer stuff i am writing i want that tele sound for some of my accent picky solo stuff guitar work, which is why i want that tele built NOW. but have to hold off till spring. regardless, i think maybe i want to explore different types of single coils and this guitar i am thinking will be be my vehicle to do that.
muttley wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:57 pm If you want to hang fire for a week or so and you can check out the custom p90 humbucker that I'm doing for Bubba's guitar build. If you are interested I'm winding up a few of them at the moment and could do you a deal on one if you don't mind covering cost and postage. You also have the plus that the pound sterling is crap at the moment so for the first time in years us Brits are export happy..

If you want to stick up other other options you want then I'll try and let you know whats involved in getting it installed and how easy it would be for you..

that's awesome muttley, thanks. I think that would be awesome and i'd have no problem covering those costs! The CAD is equally shite. Sure i'll wait till bubba does his unveiling and we can talk more then. I'll hopefully be a bit more well versed in a sound i want to hear.

In terms of other options i'm an open book in terms of single coils? i'm only really in the know of tele style and P90's. feel free to educate me here if you have time.
Greg_L wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:23 pm I'm not a neck pickup guy, but I know that most folks want a slightly milder neck pickup because the string power is stronger at the neck position anyway. And the neck sound is generally smoother and fatter. At the bridge you want something that's aggressive and cuts well.
yea i am not either really but i'll go through phases where i just want to play the neck pup with a ton of verb and some delay and just see what kind of "atmospheric" instrumental stuff i can come out with. not really punky or rocky but more atmospheric that might sound good behind some acoustics or what have you. In that respect i am not really hung up on what i'd put in there outside of something that might enhance that sort of style and would fit in a humbucker rout?

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Thanks again guys. This might tide me over till the nice weather hits and i can start the tele finishing process.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Greg_L »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:21 pm
As a personal no shame disclaimer: I am a social distortion fan boy. I love the tones they get going. i was RAH RAH P90, because that is what they kept telling people helped carve out their sound. now that i am more of grown ass man (marginally) and not so much a fanboy, I am finding maybe it is i simply prefer single coil sounds versus "A P90" If that makes any sense? So maybe that's what i am searching for? single coil alternatives? My ear seems to like to gravitate towards artists using single coils p'ups. And some of the newer stuff i am writing i want that tele sound for some of my accent picky solo stuff guitar work, which is why i want that tele built NOW. but have to hold off till spring. regardless, i think maybe i want to explore different types of single coils and this guitar i am thinking will be be my vehicle to do that.
Mine Ness does famously use P90s in pretty much everything. So does his sidekick Johnny Two Bags. That's just a little part of their sound though. Ness uses a heavily modded Bassman and the other guy uses one-knob custom made Satellite amps and attenuators. In a nutshell, they have a lot of amp gain. And I remember back in the 90s seeing Social D many times and Mike Ness always had a Boss Super OD on at all times. It just sat on top of his amp, on, all the time.

But that's them. Your differentiating between a single coil and a P90 is a little off. A P90 is a single coil, just like a Tele pickup, or a Strat pickup, or any single coil. The P90 is beefier though, similar to Fender's Jazzmaster "wide range" single coils. The P90 is pretty fat compared to other single coils. That's the beauty of the P90. Fat tone but with clarity and articulation.

But if that's too fat for you, and you want a more "Tele" sound from your Les Paul, that's actually pretty easy. Just get splittable humbuckers. Then you can almost have it all. You can have humbucker tone, and with a push/pull pot you can split that humbucker into a single coil. Now it's not gonna sound exactly "Telecaster", but it will be single coil sound. A coil-split humbucker could make that guitar very versatile.

And there's another option. The SD P-Rails. It's actually three pickups in one - a humbucker, a P90, and a single rail. With a three way toggle switch you can flip that pickup into three pickups. I had one in my Mosrite clone, and it worked well, but I found myself just leaving it in P90 mode all the time. The problem is there's no place to put that toggle on a Les Paul without drilling a hole or getting crafty with push/pull pots. So they also make a pickup mounting ring with tiny switches built in. I forget what it's called. Like a "hot ring" or "trick shot" or some shit like that. Look on Seymour Duncan's site for info.

What you can't really do is put a Fender style single coil in a Les Paul. I think the P-Rails, a splittable humbucker, or a humbucker sized P90 will be your best options.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by muttley »

"maybe it is i simply prefer single coil sounds versus "A P90"

Reading through that and I will again, I would just point out that a p90 IS a single coil pickup...

If it's fat distortion and single coil you are after a p90 clone is what you should investigate first. Prolly in both neck and bridge. If you get a matched set they will act as a hum cancelling set when used in tandem.

More later, I've just got back from the pub with my wife after our monthly little jaunt that reminds us what life used to be like before kids, mortgage, ill health and business's to run... I'll dissect what you posted in a little more detail in the morning.

Night all..:)
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by muttley »

Greg_L wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:49 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:21 pm
As a personal no shame disclaimer: I am a social distortion fan boy. I love the tones they get going. i was RAH RAH P90, because that is what they kept telling people helped carve out their sound. now that i am more of grown ass man (marginally) and not so much a fanboy, I am finding maybe it is i simply prefer single coil sounds versus "A P90" If that makes any sense? So maybe that's what i am searching for? single coil alternatives? My ear seems to like to gravitate towards artists using single coils p'ups. And some of the newer stuff i am writing i want that tele sound for some of my accent picky solo stuff guitar work, which is why i want that tele built NOW. but have to hold off till spring. regardless, i think maybe i want to explore different types of single coils and this guitar i am thinking will be be my vehicle to do that.
........................
But if that's too fat for you, and you want a more "Tele" sound from your Les Paul, that's actually pretty easy. Just get splittable humbuckers. Then you can almost have it all. You can have humbucker tone, and with a push/pull pot you can split that humbucker into a single coil. Now it's not gonna sound exactly "Telecaster", but it will be single coil sound. A coil-split humbucker could make that guitar very versatile.

...........................
Thats kind of what I was shooting for when I built that LP style in that build thread a while ago. I wanted the tele clarity but the LP p90 "fat" sound and so I ended up designing it with a p90 footprint so it looked right but wound the pickups with lighter gauge wire as per a classic tele and used similar base plate metal and magnets. I have to say the result was just about what I was after. You also get a pretty passable humbucker sound when they play in tandem but it needs some tweaking.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

This is the guitar i will be doing the pick up swap on for reference. The tone knobs are scotch taped because they are really scratchy and sensitive to any kind of touch. Part of the reason i kind of tucked it away for so long. Ill fix that too once i decide on pick ups.

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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

So after much thought and deliberation, i think i am going to be completely unoriginal and steal a page out of gregs book and do the coil splitting thing with this guitar. Why not have the best of both worlds. So i just need to look around a little harder for what i want for a sound out of this thing.

other thing i'd have to consider, is the push pull thing. My for arm is usually right over the volume and tone knobs the way i play so i am not sure if this is the best idea? I don't play live at all so there worry of damaging it isn't there.

Also is it possible to have the push pull thing wired so when the knobs are down in normal position it is in single coil mode?
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Greg_L »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:06 pm So after much thought and deliberation, i think i am going to be completely unoriginal and steal a page out of gregs book and do the coil splitting thing with this guitar. Why not have the best of both worlds. So i just need to look around a little harder for what i want for a sound out of this thing.
Lol that's not my thing. People have been doing that for decades!
other thing i'd have to consider, is the push pull thing. My for arm is usually right over the volume and tone knobs the way i play so i am not sure if this is the best idea? I don't play live at all so there worry of damaging it isn't there.
Hitting the knobs with your arm will be a very real problem. Look into Seymour Duncan's Trick Shot, or Triple Shot, or Hot shot, whatever the fuck they call it. It's a coil switching mechanism built into the pickup ring. They work on Les Pauls all day long. They'd be perfect for an upside down player like yourself.
Also is it possible to have the push pull thing wired so when the knobs are down in normal position it is in single coil mode?
Yup.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by WhiskeyJack »

Greg_L wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:23 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:06 pm So after much thought and deliberation, i think i am going to be completely unoriginal and steal a page out of gregs book and do the coil splitting thing with this guitar. Why not have the best of both worlds. So i just need to look around a little harder for what i want for a sound out of this thing.
Lol that's not my thing. People have been doing that for decades!
other thing i'd have to consider, is the push pull thing. My for arm is usually right over the volume and tone knobs the way i play so i am not sure if this is the best idea? I don't play live at all so there worry of damaging it isn't there.
Hitting the knobs with your arm will be a very real problem. Look into Seymour Duncan's Trick Shot, or Triple Shot, or Hot shot, whatever the fuck they call it. It's a coil switching mechanism built into the pickup ring. They work on Les Pauls all day long. They'd be perfect for an upside down player like yourself.
Also is it possible to have the push pull thing wired so when the knobs are down in normal position it is in single coil mode?
Yup.
Awesome. That SD thing sounds even better than a push pull thing. that would be perfect! I'll go digging tonight after work to look for more info.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Greg_L »

WhiskeyJack wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:34 pm

Awesome. That SD thing sounds even better than a push pull thing. that would be perfect! I'll go digging tonight after work to look for more info.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/accessory/ ... set-arched
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by muttley »

First thing to check is if you have four conductor wire on those pups.... Some epi's do some dont.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Roman »

Put some good humbuckers in there, a good set of pots, some nice paper in oil caps and be done with it.

Good components wired up 50s style will give you the range of sparkly clean to a growl, and will make all the difference in the world.
Splitting a humbucker never really sounds like a single coil anyway.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Roman »

Greg_L wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:44 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:34 pm

Awesome. That SD thing sounds even better than a push pull thing. that would be perfect! I'll go digging tonight after work to look for more info.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/accessory/ ... set-arched
Good idea. Except the epi rings are a different size than american standard rings. They're (epi) bigger with different mounting hole spacing. Regular pickups will fit fine in the epi rings, but if you're putting standard rings on an epi the mounting holes in the body won't line up.
So, on an epi, you're pretty much stuck using their rings.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

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muttley wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 pm First thing to check is if you have four conductor wire on those pups.... Some epi's do some dont.
Even if i was swapping out pick ups entirely? Should i be looking at new pick ups with 4 conductor wire?
Greg_L wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:44 pm
WhiskeyJack wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:34 pm

Awesome. That SD thing sounds even better than a push pull thing. that would be perfect! I'll go digging tonight after work to look for more info.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/accessory/ ... set-arched
:like:
thanks buddy.
Roman wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:04 pm Good idea. Except the epi rings are a different size than american standard rings. They're (epi) bigger with different mounting hole spacing. Regular pickups will fit fine in the epi rings, but if you're putting standard rings on an epi the mounting holes in the body won't line up.
So, on an epi, you're pretty much stuck using their rings.
Your posts are good help. good to know.

So you are saying that this triple shot thing isn't going to fit my guit?
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Roman »

Not without plugging and redrilling the 4 mounting screw holes. And then, because the epi rings are physically larger, you may see some 'compression marks' from where the old ring sat. (Depending on how soft the finish was when the guitar was assembled ) Oh, and your original pickguard won't fit properly either.

The epi plastics, as well as the bridge and T/P, are completely different from it's made in USA counterpart.
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

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WhiskeyJack wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:00 pm
muttley wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 pm First thing to check is if you have four conductor wire on those pups.... Some epi's do some dont.
Even if i was swapping out pick ups entirely? Should i be looking at new pick ups with 4 conductor wire?
If you want to do a coils split yes. Thats how it works. You have a start and finish wire from each coil which gives you four wires. By isolating just one set of start finish wires you are effectively just using one coil while the other remains out of the circuit.

The original and some buckers today already have those wires hooked up within the pickup assembly and the coils already hooked up together to just a hot and ground wire making it really hard to mod them because you need to trace and solder up onto the fine hair thick wire to get four wires instead of two.

You may already have four conductor on there, a quick shot of the control cavity will tell us..
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Re: Pick Up Swaps.

Post by Greg_L »

I didn't know that about the Epi/Gibson trim parts being different. Better look into that.
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