String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

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miroslav
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String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by miroslav »

I came across this new approach to fixing tuning issues...though at about $50 each, if you have a lot of guitars...is can really add up.
I'm just wondering if this is like so many other psychical tuning "fixes"....where it only helps a little and only in some cases.

[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpq__aiyPlw[/BBvideo]
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Lt. Bob
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Lt. Bob »

looks like it Might help but just lubricating the nut should work as well.

Also i don't agree pauls are plagued with tuning issues
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Greg_L »

It's a clever solution for a problem that doesn't really exist. Do 3+3 headstock Gibsons have tuning problems? Sometimes. Is it an easy fix? Yup.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by ido1957 »

Looks like it would work, but not sure I want that on my headstock.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by muttley »

It's not a new solution and all it will do is rob you of $50...

Ask yourself this. If you walk with a limp because you leg hurts is the best solution to introduce pain in the other leg or get the other leg fixed?

Just get your nut cut properly. All the rest is junk...
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miroslav
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by miroslav »

muttley wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:37 pm Just get your nut cut properly. All the rest is junk...
Oh I wasn't looking to try it...I was just curious if anyone else checked it out.

So what's your idea of a "properly" cut nut to remove any tuning issues from the nut?
Are you just talking about proper slot height relative to the board...
...or are you also talking about opening the slot more on the back-end, toward the machine heads, to minimize string bind due to hard angles...?...which I guess is what this gizmo is trying to do.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by muttley »

miroslav wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:50 pm
muttley wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:37 pm Just get your nut cut properly. All the rest is junk...
Oh I wasn't looking to try it...I was just curious if anyone else checked it out.

So what's your idea of a "properly" cut nut to remove any tuning issues from the nut?
Are you just talking about proper slot height relative to the board...
...or are you also talking about opening the slot more on the back-end, toward the machine heads, to minimize string bind due to hard angles...?...which I guess is what this gizmo is trying to do.
I have no clear idea but a rough guess would be that in the last 35 years I have shaped and cut many thousands guitar nuts (I have done three today) and worked on more than that for existing nuts. It's not rocket science. The nut is a fret with the ability to hold the strings in a fixed position to stop them moving side ways but allows the string to move along and through the slot.

Rule of thumb. The string height should be the same as the first fret or very slightly higher depending on action. Wound strings should be cut to a depth of two thirds string diametre. Plain strings half the depth of the string. The slot should be very slightly wider than the string gauge but not much.

If you start cutting the slot wider in front or behind the contact point you will have buzzing. If you dont have contact at all points across the nut you will have buzzing. If you dont have enough break angle you will have buzzing. You angle the slot towards the machine head but it is cut across the nut in a straight line. The slot should also aim the string above the tuner fixing when it leaves the nut.

On a truly good nut the gap between the strings is equal unless specifically asked to do it otherwise...
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by WhiskeyJack »

i have a few 3x3 LP style heads.

My LP and my Epi have consitent, persistent tuning issues with the G string. Also my Sparrow has that issue as well. Ibanez not so much but all string on that need a slight adjustment while tracking. that may be the machine head things themselves though.

it's never all that bad after a restring and a good lube job, but the g string on the Epi, LP and Sparrow are just always an issue. I always just choked it up to how i play.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by miroslav »

muttley wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:08 pm You angle the slot towards the machine head but it is cut across the nut in a straight line. The slot should also aim the string above the tuner fixing when it leaves the nut.
I lost you here.
How do you angle it but in a straight line...?
I assume you mean cut it straight...without any curvature....?
I've never seen a slot that was "aimed at the machine head". I've only seen nuts with the slots cut straight and perpendicular to the nut/frets.

Now I'm not really asking about cutting any fresh nuts from scratch...and I do get all the other stuff you said about how best to cut them.
That said, I have heard of people taking the "back side" of the nut slots (mostly for the three plain strings)...and very mildly rounding those outer edges, so that the strings don't have to bend/rub across a very hard/sharp edge as they exit the slots toward the heads (it's really the B and G...the E string is pretty straight by default from slot to head)....and that in doing so, it lessens the string pinch-n-pop you can get very often with B and G plains.
That you just need a light shave or sanding with like 400-600 grit...just enough to slightly open and smooth that point...of course, assuming that the rest of the slot is just right/wide enough and not also pinching the string.
I guess the idea is that as the string bends hard at that exit point edge...and if it sits there for a bit, it kinda "sticks"...and you get that pop when you bend a string or turn the tuner. That "opening/rounding" that exit edge can relieve that stickiness....???
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Greg_L »

miroslav wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:27 pm

I lost you here.
How do you angle it but in a straight line...?
I assume you mean cut it straight...without any curvature....?
I've never seen a slot that was "aimed at the machine head". I've only seen nuts with the slots cut straight and perpendicular to the nut/frets.

Now I'm not really asking about cutting any fresh nuts from scratch...and I do get all the other stuff you said about how best to cut them.
That said, I have heard of people taking the "back side" of the nut slots (mostly for the three plain strings)...and very mildly rounding those outer edges, so that the strings don't have to bend/rub across a very hard/sharp edge as they exit the slots toward the heads (it's really the B and G...the E string is pretty straight by default from slot to head)....and that in doing so, it lessens the string pinch-n-pop you can get very often with B and G plains.
That you just need a light shave or sanding with like 400-600 grit...just enough to slightly open and smooth that point...of course, assuming that the rest of the slot is just right/wide enough and not also pinching the string.
I guess the idea is that as the string bends hard at that exit point edge...and if it sits there for a bit, it kinda "sticks"...and you get that pop when you bend a string or turn the tuner. That "opening/rounding" that exit edge can relieve that stickiness....???
That's pretty much what I do. I was a machinist in another life, so I have some sweet ass feeler gauges. I use a feeler gauge that matches the string diameter for each slot, wrap a little piece of 600 grit sandpaper around it, and slide it through the backside of the nut angling towards the tuner. I don't go in there sawing away sending bits of nut dust everywhere. Just a few gentle swipes to smooth the edges. The front side of the nut (fretboard side) stays untouched. That leading edge of the nut is very important. I leave that alone. But the backside gets a little smoothing massage and my SGs and LPs pretty much never go out of tune.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by rayc »

That's the gizmo I was referring to in the LP Jnr build thread. Mutt had clarified the situation regarding it over there.
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miroslav
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by miroslav »

Greg_L wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:37 pm ...slide it through the backside of the nut angling towards the tuner.

Just a few gentle swipes to smooth the edges. The front side of the nut (fretboard side) stays untouched.
Yeah...that's what I'm talking about. I've heard people do that with good results...that it's a very minor "rounding" of that exit edge.

The rest of the slot is left alone, unless it need to be a pinch wider for your given gauge.
The mass production nuts seem to cut the E-B-G slots kinda narrow on some guitars...but you can feel it easy enough if you just slide the string through it a couple of times to see if the slot is wide enough for the gauge or pinching.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by muttley »

miroslav wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:27 pm
muttley wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:08 pm You angle the slot towards the machine head but it is cut across the nut in a straight line. The slot should also aim the string above the tuner fixing when it leaves the nut.
I lost you here.
How do you angle it but in a straight line...?
I assume you mean cut it straight...without any curvature....?
I've never seen a slot that was "aimed at the machine head". I've only seen nuts with the slots cut straight and perpendicular to the nut/frets.

Now I'm not really asking about cutting any fresh nuts from scratch...and I do get all the other stuff you said about how best to cut them.
That said, I have heard of people taking the "back side" of the nut slots (mostly for the three plain strings)...and very mildly rounding those outer edges, so that the strings don't have to bend/rub across a very hard/sharp edge as they exit the slots toward the heads (it's really the B and G...the E string is pretty straight by default from slot to head)....and that in doing so, it lessens the string pinch-n-pop you can get very often with B and G plains.
That you just need a light shave or sanding with like 400-600 grit...just enough to slightly open and smooth that point...of course, assuming that the rest of the slot is just right/wide enough and not also pinching the string.
I guess the idea is that as the string bends hard at that exit point edge...and if it sits there for a bit, it kinda "sticks"...and you get that pop when you bend a string or turn the tuner. That "opening/rounding" that exit edge can relieve that stickiness....???
The string slot is very slightly wider than the string diameter. Thats all you need. If you start adding a wider slot at the break angle you risk string buzz or harmonic wolf tones. There are a bunch of ways to fiddle a badly cut nut slot and that would be one of them.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by muttley »

Greg_L wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:37 pm
miroslav wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:27 pm

I lost you here.
How do you angle it but in a straight line...?
I assume you mean cut it straight...without any curvature....?
I've never seen a slot that was "aimed at the machine head". I've only seen nuts with the slots cut straight and perpendicular to the nut/frets.

Now I'm not really asking about cutting any fresh nuts from scratch...and I do get all the other stuff you said about how best to cut them.
That said, I have heard of people taking the "back side" of the nut slots (mostly for the three plain strings)...and very mildly rounding those outer edges, so that the strings don't have to bend/rub across a very hard/sharp edge as they exit the slots toward the heads (it's really the B and G...the E string is pretty straight by default from slot to head)....and that in doing so, it lessens the string pinch-n-pop you can get very often with B and G plains.
That you just need a light shave or sanding with like 400-600 grit...just enough to slightly open and smooth that point...of course, assuming that the rest of the slot is just right/wide enough and not also pinching the string.
I guess the idea is that as the string bends hard at that exit point edge...and if it sits there for a bit, it kinda "sticks"...and you get that pop when you bend a string or turn the tuner. That "opening/rounding" that exit edge can relieve that stickiness....???
That's pretty much what I do. I was a machinist in another life, so I have some sweet ass feeler gauges. I use a feeler gauge that matches the string diameter for each slot, wrap a little piece of 600 grit sandpaper around it, and slide it through the backside of the nut angling towards the tuner. I don't go in there sawing away sending bits of nut dust everywhere. Just a few gentle swipes to smooth the edges. The front side of the nut (fretboard side) stays untouched. That leading edge of the nut is very important. I leave that alone. But the backside gets a little smoothing massage and my SGs and LPs pretty much never go out of tune.
Yep, one of my pro tips if you dont have nut files.... :like:
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Greg_L »

muttley wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:28 am

Yep, one of my pro tips if you dont have nut files.... :like:
I know. I'm about 97.481% certain you're the one that told me to do that many years ago. :coolstorybro: :coolstorybro:
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Armistice »

You had me at "smoothing massage on the backside"... :o

You dirty boy, you. :lol:
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Greg_L »

Armistice wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:20 am You had me at "smoothing massage on the backside"... :o

You dirty boy, you. :lol:
Lol. You should try it. I'd bet the nut on your fancy new LP was probably cut with a dull spoon by a retard. It's a shame that you'd have to do that on an expensive new Gibson, but that's just how they are.
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Armistice »

Greg_L wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:42 am
Armistice wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:20 am You had me at "smoothing massage on the backside"... :o

You dirty boy, you. :lol:
Lol. You should try it. I'd bet the nut on your fancy new LP was probably cut with a dull spoon by a retard. It's a shame that you'd have to do that on an expensive new Gibson, but that's just how they are.
It's actually OK, but I have done similar on other guitars, so I know how - but yeah, I may have been lucky - god knows some of the other finishing on it was a bit crap luckily just on the black painted bits and not the top - nothing I couldn't and didn't fix with a bit of ultra fine car scratch removing compound, but you shouldn't have to. :guru:
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Greg_L »

Armistice wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:50 am

It's actually OK, but I have done similar on other guitars, so I know how - but yeah, I may have been lucky - god knows some of the other finishing on it was a bit crap luckily just on the black painted bits and not the top - nothing I couldn't and didn't fix with a bit of ultra fine car scratch removing compound, but you shouldn't have to. :guru:
As the guitar settles in it may develop the dreaded nut ping. Or maybe you did just luck out.

What do you have painted black on your Les Paul? Is it a "black back"?
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Re: String Butler - gimmick or real solution?

Post by Armistice »

Greg_L wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:56 am
Armistice wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:50 am

It's actually OK, but I have done similar on other guitars, so I know how - but yeah, I may have been lucky - god knows some of the other finishing on it was a bit crap luckily just on the black painted bits and not the top - nothing I couldn't and didn't fix with a bit of ultra fine car scratch removing compound, but you shouldn't have to. :guru:
As the guitar settles in it may develop the dreaded nut ping. Or maybe you did just luck out.

What do you have painted black on your Les Paul? Is it a "black back"?
There's a bit of nut ping - D string, always - but that'll sort itself out in time, I hope, and I just use a 2B pencil for lube as required. I'll open the back end of the slot a smidge if it doesn't. Black back - there was some poor finishing on the upper bout and also the neck near the nut - don't know how I didn't see it in the shop as I gave it a really good looking over - but poor lighting perhaps. Fixed now anyway - just needed a decent hand rub.
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