Yeah I know, I just haven't yet. I'm about to grab some lunch and check it when I get back.
Look what I got....
Re: Look what I got....
Rebel Yell
Re: Look what I got....
OK, first things first break it down into fault finding then cures..
Fault finding..
This is a very common problem on all guitars at some point especially newer ones that havent had the proper fret work done when putting it together. The most common cause is a fret that rises in the slot. Its very rarely a low fret. Contrary to intuition it is often not the neighboring fret but the next one up, so in your case the fourth (?). The string vibration is minimal at the neighboring fret and often not enough to choke or buzz.
Get a straight edge that will bridge three frets and place it alongside the string so it covers three frets and if it rocks you have a high spot. Dont use a straight edge that covers more than three frets cos it will start to show you the neck relief and give you a false reading. Dont touch the truss rod in this case because that low on the fret board it is almost certainly not down to neck relief. Besides that would be the wrong fix anyway as it would just mask the problem and mess with the play-ability and setup that is fine everywhere else. Truss rods and relief solve other problems not high frets.
I would imaging that if you have a high spot on the fourth fret, (possibly the third or fifth but more likely the fourth) you may want to check if it is just under the one string or right across the fret. That may help you decide on what type of fix.
If and when you have identified the rogue fret, take a good look at the bottom where it seats in the board and see if you can spot any gap. If yest you will need to press that fret back in, possibly with a spot of glue to seat it. Many cheap Chinese guitars do not use anything to seat frets and is one of the reasons this is quite a common problem.
If the fret is tight to the board then you can assume that it is properly seated and look into the fix for that.
If you cant find a high or low spot get back to me... If you do then read on.
The cure.
As mentioned if the fret is loose or has popped up you need to get it back down. The best way is to use a block of wood or something similar that wont damage the fret) support the back of the neck with something solid that wont damage the finish and use the block of wood and a small pin hammer to try and reseat the fret where it has risen. Often they will pop right out again or bounce. Its then that you need to get some glue in there to hold it down. To do that put some masking tape either side of the fret to avoid getting glue on the surface and work some CA or titebond in there. Titebond is quite thick so you will need to work it in. Once thats done get a clamp and clamp that block of wood across the three frets making sure to protect the back of the neck. The block should pull the three frets down level.
If the fret is seated well but high then you have the option of raising the action to get rid of the problem or taking the fret down. Be careful when doing what Boob suggests. Whilst it is correct it is also very easy to chase the problem along the board and we dont want that if the rest of the board is good.
You want a dead flat sanding block of some sort that will cover three or four frets frets (a small engineers square stock is ideal or anything you trust to be flat and true) and some fine emery cloth and fine wet and dry. I use diamond files but you would be unlikely to have them to hand... Mark the top of the frets with black marker and lightly work the high fret so it takes off the marker on the high fret trying not to remove anything from the frets next to them. Periodically check with the rocking straight edge trick to see how its going. You dont want to take off too much. Dont worry if you get a flat to the top of the fret you can deal with that latter. Test for the buzz as you go, take it steady. It often dont need much. Once the buzz has gone or is all but gone you can remove the strings from that area and use some fine wet and dry across all the nearby frets using your fingers and you should knock off the flat and crown the fret in one go. If you need to do more crowning than you can do with wet and dry get back to me. Finally polish off the scratch marks with some t-cut or silver polish to bring the finish back up.
I recommend you mask off while working on the frets to avoid further relicing.
I'm pretty confident that it is a high fret and likely that it will go down with tapping or at worst clamping but if it is seated well and you need to stone it take your time.
Fault finding..
This is a very common problem on all guitars at some point especially newer ones that havent had the proper fret work done when putting it together. The most common cause is a fret that rises in the slot. Its very rarely a low fret. Contrary to intuition it is often not the neighboring fret but the next one up, so in your case the fourth (?). The string vibration is minimal at the neighboring fret and often not enough to choke or buzz.
Get a straight edge that will bridge three frets and place it alongside the string so it covers three frets and if it rocks you have a high spot. Dont use a straight edge that covers more than three frets cos it will start to show you the neck relief and give you a false reading. Dont touch the truss rod in this case because that low on the fret board it is almost certainly not down to neck relief. Besides that would be the wrong fix anyway as it would just mask the problem and mess with the play-ability and setup that is fine everywhere else. Truss rods and relief solve other problems not high frets.
I would imaging that if you have a high spot on the fourth fret, (possibly the third or fifth but more likely the fourth) you may want to check if it is just under the one string or right across the fret. That may help you decide on what type of fix.
If and when you have identified the rogue fret, take a good look at the bottom where it seats in the board and see if you can spot any gap. If yest you will need to press that fret back in, possibly with a spot of glue to seat it. Many cheap Chinese guitars do not use anything to seat frets and is one of the reasons this is quite a common problem.
If the fret is tight to the board then you can assume that it is properly seated and look into the fix for that.
If you cant find a high or low spot get back to me... If you do then read on.
The cure.
As mentioned if the fret is loose or has popped up you need to get it back down. The best way is to use a block of wood or something similar that wont damage the fret) support the back of the neck with something solid that wont damage the finish and use the block of wood and a small pin hammer to try and reseat the fret where it has risen. Often they will pop right out again or bounce. Its then that you need to get some glue in there to hold it down. To do that put some masking tape either side of the fret to avoid getting glue on the surface and work some CA or titebond in there. Titebond is quite thick so you will need to work it in. Once thats done get a clamp and clamp that block of wood across the three frets making sure to protect the back of the neck. The block should pull the three frets down level.
If the fret is seated well but high then you have the option of raising the action to get rid of the problem or taking the fret down. Be careful when doing what Boob suggests. Whilst it is correct it is also very easy to chase the problem along the board and we dont want that if the rest of the board is good.
You want a dead flat sanding block of some sort that will cover three or four frets frets (a small engineers square stock is ideal or anything you trust to be flat and true) and some fine emery cloth and fine wet and dry. I use diamond files but you would be unlikely to have them to hand... Mark the top of the frets with black marker and lightly work the high fret so it takes off the marker on the high fret trying not to remove anything from the frets next to them. Periodically check with the rocking straight edge trick to see how its going. You dont want to take off too much. Dont worry if you get a flat to the top of the fret you can deal with that latter. Test for the buzz as you go, take it steady. It often dont need much. Once the buzz has gone or is all but gone you can remove the strings from that area and use some fine wet and dry across all the nearby frets using your fingers and you should knock off the flat and crown the fret in one go. If you need to do more crowning than you can do with wet and dry get back to me. Finally polish off the scratch marks with some t-cut or silver polish to bring the finish back up.
I recommend you mask off while working on the frets to avoid further relicing.
I'm pretty confident that it is a high fret and likely that it will go down with tapping or at worst clamping but if it is seated well and you need to stone it take your time.
Re: Look what I got....
This is the first thing to do. Work out exactly where the high spot is.
I doubt you have a low fret, it's not common at all. Fret wire is made by the mile and is pretty uniform. Ive never had it myself in over thirty years. If it's a single low fret then something else has gone wrong not the fret wire... The fix for that is to pull the fret and replace or stone and crown the whole fret board. Not a simple task with DIY tools. I've probably only seen half a dozen low frets in all the years I've been doing this. Also it wouldnt suddenly start a problem now, it would have been there from the get go..
Re: Look what I got....
Thats pretty much how its done or variations there of.. Problem is that often people will stone down a high fret that has popped up. As soon as humidity changes the fret can get pulled back in as the fingerboard moves and then you have a low spot. Always check it isnt the fret thats popped first.
Think about which way the timber on the fret board is gonna move? It's gonna move out and up driving the fret up. It can happen locally as well if the slot is not well cut and moisture wicks under it. Then when it dries the fret stays where it is, or often gets pulled back down. If you've stoned it flat while its up you're futzed..
Re: Look what I got....
Here's a bloke using a fret rocker on a shite guitar
https://youtu.be/RHwt5pAmY7I?t=71
https://youtu.be/RHwt5pAmY7I?t=71
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cakewalkKaKed
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Re: Look what I got....
Greg_L wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:54 pmIt definitely has not always been like this. So maybe it does have something to do with weather change....except the weather hasn't changed!cakewalkKaKed wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:35 pm
if it bums out fretting the 2nd,then maybe its too low or the 3rd is to high .. but i propose this:- *maybe* its always been like that,but more humidity has caused a neck change .. a truss rod nip is the easiest simplest thing to try .. and if it is this then theres no permanent change made to the guitar that could cause more problems when the weathers better ...
I'll happily try a truss rod adjustment. How will that affect only the treble side of one fret though? The neck relief, action, and intonation is quite good on the guitar....except for that one damn string on that one fret.
noooooooooooooooooooo! i mean always had a bad fret (or 2) but you never noticed before cos of a recent neck change ... slacken the truss rod off,if it goes back to "normal" then maybe its cos of all that water you just had penetrating the air ...
you might be posting in a week or 2 that one of the good guitars is doing the same .. imo the flood could be the root cause ...
just putting 2 and 2 together ... and a truss rod nip is easy
Re: Look what I got....
Dont touch the truss rod. Truss rods are not meant to fix problems with high or low frets or one off buzzes.
The truss rod counteracts the tension of the strings on the neck nothing more. A by product of that is that it allows us to have a lower action because it imparts relief to the neck under the strings. It would not help in this case.
If you had choking in the middle of the fret board or many buzzes particularly in the centre of the neck maybe, but not one buzzing fret.
The truss rod counteracts the tension of the strings on the neck nothing more. A by product of that is that it allows us to have a lower action because it imparts relief to the neck under the strings. It would not help in this case.
If you had choking in the middle of the fret board or many buzzes particularly in the centre of the neck maybe, but not one buzzing fret.
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cakewalkKaKed
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:36 am
- Location: wallowing in a particular insanity of any given time
Re: Look what I got....
if humidity changed the wood could change,neck will either expand or contract .. if his neck relief was bowed enough as to hide an original fret problem then not enough relief would expose em ... truss rod for me would be 1st step to rule out humidity
Re: Look what I got....
Not to labour the point but..
Wood dimensional changes due to changes in moisture content (movement in service) occur radially and tangentially along the grain and only very minimally longitudinally. For what you are describing to happen is near impossible without catastrophic failure. The likely affect of changes in moisture content on a fretboard would be frets popping and fret ends sinking or creeping. In short movement of the fret board would be across it's width and depth not its length. The potential is further minimised by using timbers that suffer little movement in service due to changes in moisture content. Rosewood, ebony, Maple etc...
The truss rod will not fix the problem..
Wood dimensional changes due to changes in moisture content (movement in service) occur radially and tangentially along the grain and only very minimally longitudinally. For what you are describing to happen is near impossible without catastrophic failure. The likely affect of changes in moisture content on a fretboard would be frets popping and fret ends sinking or creeping. In short movement of the fret board would be across it's width and depth not its length. The potential is further minimised by using timbers that suffer little movement in service due to changes in moisture content. Rosewood, ebony, Maple etc...
The truss rod will not fix the problem..
Re: Look what I got....
Thank you mutt. You actually nailed it.muttley wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:17 pm OK, first things first break it down into fault finding then cures..
Fault finding..
This is a very common problem on all guitars at some point especially newer ones that havent had the proper fret work done when putting it together. The most common cause is a fret that rises in the slot. Its very rarely a low fret. Contrary to intuition it is often not the neighboring fret but the next one up, so in your case the fourth (?). The string vibration is minimal at the neighboring fret and often not enough to choke or buzz.
Get a straight edge that will bridge three frets and place it alongside the string so it covers three frets and if it rocks you have a high spot. Dont use a straight edge that covers more than three frets cos it will start to show you the neck relief and give you a false reading. Dont touch the truss rod in this case because that low on the fret board it is almost certainly not down to neck relief. Besides that would be the wrong fix anyway as it would just mask the problem and mess with the play-ability and setup that is fine everywhere else. Truss rods and relief solve other problems not high frets.
I would imaging that if you have a high spot on the fourth fret, (possibly the third or fifth but more likely the fourth) you may want to check if it is just under the one string or right across the fret. That may help you decide on what type of fix.
If and when you have identified the rogue fret, take a good look at the bottom where it seats in the board and see if you can spot any gap. If yest you will need to press that fret back in, possibly with a spot of glue to seat it. Many cheap Chinese guitars do not use anything to seat frets and is one of the reasons this is quite a common problem.
If the fret is tight to the board then you can assume that it is properly seated and look into the fix for that.
If you cant find a high or low spot get back to me... If you do then read on.
The cure.
As mentioned if the fret is loose or has popped up you need to get it back down. The best way is to use a block of wood or something similar that wont damage the fret) support the back of the neck with something solid that wont damage the finish and use the block of wood and a small pin hammer to try and reseat the fret where it has risen. Often they will pop right out again or bounce. Its then that you need to get some glue in there to hold it down. To do that put some masking tape either side of the fret to avoid getting glue on the surface and work some CA or titebond in there. Titebond is quite thick so you will need to work it in. Once thats done get a clamp and clamp that block of wood across the three frets making sure to protect the back of the neck. The block should pull the three frets down level.
If the fret is seated well but high then you have the option of raising the action to get rid of the problem or taking the fret down. Be careful when doing what Boob suggests. Whilst it is correct it is also very easy to chase the problem along the board and we dont want that if the rest of the board is good.
You want a dead flat sanding block of some sort that will cover three or four frets frets (a small engineers square stock is ideal or anything you trust to be flat and true) and some fine emery cloth and fine wet and dry. I use diamond files but you would be unlikely to have them to hand... Mark the top of the frets with black marker and lightly work the high fret so it takes off the marker on the high fret trying not to remove anything from the frets next to them. Periodically check with the rocking straight edge trick to see how its going. You dont want to take off too much. Dont worry if you get a flat to the top of the fret you can deal with that latter. Test for the buzz as you go, take it steady. It often dont need much. Once the buzz has gone or is all but gone you can remove the strings from that area and use some fine wet and dry across all the nearby frets using your fingers and you should knock off the flat and crown the fret in one go. If you need to do more crowning than you can do with wet and dry get back to me. Finally polish off the scratch marks with some t-cut or silver polish to bring the finish back up.
I recommend you mask off while working on the frets to avoid further relicing.
I'm pretty confident that it is a high fret and likely that it will go down with tapping or at worst clamping but if it is seated well and you need to stone it take your time.
The 3rd fret right at the treble edge of the fretboard is high. I just checked it with a square that spans across exactly three frets. They're all level except for the very end of the 3rd fret.
So now I will investigate if it's popped up or not.
Rebel Yell
Re: Look what I got....
Check the 4th and 5th also.. As I mentioned, often but not always they can be worse and are easy to miss. You end up chasing the problem. If the fret has popped up because of a change in moisture the board would moved out and up and could have moved adjacent frets. Worth a check just to be sure.
Re: Look what I got....
also if its just the edge of the fret, can you see any gap on the edge of the slot by the tang? When that happens its easy to get a bit of titebond in there and clamp it down as described.
Re: Look what I got....
4th and 5th seem to be perfectly flat and level with their adjacent frets. The straight edge definitely rocks a little on the 3rd fret compared to 1 and 2.muttley wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:04 pm Check the 4th and 5th also.. As I mentioned, often but not always they can be worse and are easy to miss. You end up chasing the problem. If the fret has popped up because of a change in moisture the board would moved out and up and could have moved adjacent frets. Worth a check just to be sure.
Rebel Yell
Re: Look what I got....
Thats good. You will know if it's not seated simply by checking the fret end and having as little feel with your fingernail under the fret bevel.. Sounds like you should be ok to get this fixed pretty easy.
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cakewalkKaKed
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Re: Look what I got....
sounds like you gave it a bathmuttley wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:58 pm Not to labour the point but..
Wood dimensional changes due to changes in moisture content (movement in service) occur radially and tangentially along the grain and only very minimally longitudinally. For what you are describing to happen is near impossible without catastrophic failure. The likely affect of changes in moisture content on a fretboard would be frets popping and fret ends sinking or creeping. In short movement of the fret board would be across it's width and depth not its length. The potential is further minimised by using timbers that suffer little movement in service due to changes in moisture content. Rosewood, ebony, Maple etc...
The truss rod will not fix the problem..
...Re: Look what I got....
Yup, I see it now with a magnifying glass. The fret is lifted ever so slightly. Cool. I know what to do. Thank mutt.
Rebel Yell
Re: Look what I got....
Just trying to help people understand how their guitars work...cakewalkKaKed wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:35 pmsounds like you gave it a bathmuttley wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:58 pm Not to labour the point but..
Wood dimensional changes due to changes in moisture content (movement in service) occur radially and tangentially along the grain and only very minimally longitudinally. For what you are describing to happen is near impossible without catastrophic failure. The likely affect of changes in moisture content on a fretboard would be frets popping and fret ends sinking or creeping. In short movement of the fret board would be across it's width and depth not its length. The potential is further minimised by using timbers that suffer little movement in service due to changes in moisture content. Rosewood, ebony, Maple etc...
The truss rod will not fix the problem..
Re: Look what I got....
Okay mutt, so look at this, the whole fret just popped out with a little fingernail lift...
So....should I clean out the slot and just glue it back in?
Rebel Yell
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cakewalkKaKed
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- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:36 am
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Re: Look what I got....
lol! that solves that then 