Look what I got....

[muttley]

not in the first few frets ..... the truss rod basically doesn't move that area of the neck at all

yes it does

Just so everyone is clear about this.

A truss rod is designed to counter act the pull of the strings. Thats it. A by product of how they do that is that it allows us to set a relief that permits a lower than theoretical action. The way that material mechanics describes the elastic deformation of a solid been under compression is that the resulting curve is parabolic unless the material has 100% elasticity. Wood (being anistropic) and truss rods do not. Consequently the deformation will be proportionally significantly greater toward the centre of the beam (the neck). Effectively the wood near the ends of the rod is "stiffer" Not that any of that would help in this instance.

When you tighten a truss rod you compress the timber behind the neck. You do not put the fingerboard under tension. For the fingerboard to be compressed you would need a double action rod and apply so much compression force that you would risk popping the fret board.

Lesson over..

[Greg_L]

I must have missed the wooden block part.

In the past, I've seen videos of using a tiny hammer, but I thought I'd be doing okay by using a brass punch. Brass is soft. I had no idea a steel fret would be softer than brass. Maybe this Chinese guitar has some low-grade pot-metal frets or something.

No the B does not play okay. The original problem was on the high E, and it does play okay now, but the now the B is fucked with the big dent and I've probably mangled it with my halfassed crown job. I'll try to get a pic today.

I think what I'm gonna do is use this guitar as a guinea pig and learn how to refret it.

Frets are nickle silver which is largely copper, around a fifth is nickle and there are a bunch of other trace stuff in there to aid tarnishing and make the base harder. and some other elements like brass that make it harder. Brass can often be harder than the nickle silver. The fret wire is probably not dunlop quality but hey ho its a Chibson after all. If you were doing a lot of frets I would advise getting a small nylon tipped pin hammer or a small steel head pin hammer and keep the striking face well polished. I cover the head with masking tap when tapping on frets I dont want to recrown or polish but I have a good feel for it after doing lots of em..

What is the problem on the b? Catching on the dent? Buzzing? It could be that know you've reseated the fret it is buzzing simply because it is back where it should have been all along. Check out the higher frets. Like I said one of the problems of doing this sort of thing is chasing the problem up the board.

Dont do anything too drastic yet. A refret can be done but you'll learn from what you are trying now...

I have all sort of hammers. Nylon, brass, hardened steel, rubber, deadblow, etc. Being a machinist, sometimes you have to delicately beat the shit out of something.

The problem with the fret now is there is a huge dent right under the B string. Lol. It looks like heavy fret wear on just one fret. You know how old frets get dents under the strings? That's what this looks like.

All the other frets are fine, sound fine, play fine. I just mangled this one fret.

[muttley]

So it buzzes? Snags?

In case you need fret wire get your vernier out and measure the width and height of the crown. I can send you a few bits in the posts in case you need them. I have miles of most gauges..

[muttley]

...and I am also familiar with the fine art of beating the shit out of stuff on occasion...

[Greg_L]

So it buzzes? Snags?

In case you need fret wire get your vernier out and measure the width and height of the crown. I can send you a few bits in the posts in case you need them. I have miles of most gauges..

It's like that string on that fret is totally dead now. It doesn't snag, it just chokes out because the big dent is exactly where you'd push down to fret that note. What note is that....um...D. 3rd fret D on the B string. Huge dent int he fret and the string falls into it when fretted.

The G string buzzes a little bit in that area now too.

I'll try to measure the frets and get back to you.

[muttley]

OK sounds like it's completely futzed. You have two options. Stone all the other frets to the same height and recrown and polish or replace the damaged fret. I'll send you some fret wire if there is none near you to get a hold of much easier..

[Greg_L]

OK sounds like it's completely futzed. You have two options. Stone all the other frets to the same height and recrown and polish or replace the damaged fret. I'll send you some fret wire if there is none near you to get a hold of much easier..

Yeah I'm not gonna bring all of the other frets down to this one. I'll just try to yank this one back out and try it again.

It's not a huge issue right now. I'll get back to you if I can't find any fret wire. There's a few repair shops around that might even give me some scraps.

Thanks mutt.

[JD01]

Could you try turning the fret around? Maybe a dent in the fret will have less effect on the A string than it does on the B string.

[muttley]

Could you try turning the fret around? Maybe a dent in the fret will have less effect on the A string than it does on the B string.

Its a plan but you are going to want to limit the number of times you pull and push that fret in case you futz up the slot... Id be inclined to cut my losses right now and replace the fret. Fret wire is cheap...

[Greg_L]

Its a plan but you are going to want to limit the number of times you pull and push that fret in case you futz up the slot... Id be inclined to cut my losses right now and replace the fret. Fret wire is cheap...

That's what I'm thinking. There's no point in trying to salvage a junk fret on a mostly junk guitar. There's no upside. I'll just replace the fret.

[muttley]

OK sounds like it's completely futzed. You have two options. Stone all the other frets to the same height and recrown and polish or replace the damaged fret. I'll send you some fret wire if there is none near you to get a hold of much easier..

Yeah I'm not gonna bring all of the other frets down to this one. I'll just try to yank this one back out and try it again.

It's not a huge issue right now. I'll get back to you if I can't find any fret wire. There's a few repair shops around that might even give me some scraps.

Thanks mutt.

You'll find fret wire OK but if it costs more than a few dollars postage give me a shout..

[Greg_L]

You'll find fret wire OK but if it costs more than a few dollars postage give me a shout..

Ok thanks mutt.

[cakewalkKaKed]

No it isnt.

I dont want to blow my own trumpet but I've been building and repairing ALL types of guitars and fretted instruments for over 35 years, 25 of them exclusively full time. You dont have to read or take note of anything I say, thats your choice, but if one of the countries longest serving professional luthiers and most highly regarded archtop builders was talking to me about stuff I'd probably listen. I listen every time I meet another builder, they all know stuff that can improve my understanding and how I do stuff. We all have differant approaches to stuff that we can share but some things just are what they are...

A truss rod adjustment would not fix this kind of problem on any guitar and is not the first thing to look at when such a problem presents. If anything it would make the task more complicated.

Sorry if this has come across as a bit arrogant and blunt, its not personal but thats just the way it is...

dude! i am absolutely in shock that you don't know how this works !!

yes it does

Just so everyone is clear about this.

A truss rod is designed to counter act the pull of the strings. Thats it. A by product of how they do that is that it allows us to set a relief that permits a lower than theoretical action. The way that material mechanics describes the elastic deformation of a solid been under compression is that the resulting curve is parabolic unless the material has 100% elasticity. Wood (being anistropic) and truss rods do not. Consequently the deformation will be proportionally significantly greater toward the centre of the beam (the neck). Effectively the wood near the ends of the rod is "stiffer" Not that any of that would help in this instance.

When you tighten a truss rod you compress the timber behind the neck. You do not put the fingerboard under tension. For the fingerboard to be compressed you would need a double action rod and apply so much compression force that you would risk popping the fret board.

Lesson over..

yes it is,an acoustic neck has more mass over a shorter length = strong

say an SG = its bendy


you can also put a bow in a neck ..


what about the headstock position when all this counter tensions going on? and that's not also the nut relation to the bridge .. and say the 24th fret?

a guitar neck is only fixed at one end,to do what your talking about it must be fixed at both ends

[JD01]

cake, its time to choose between ladder and spade.

[muttley]

yes it is,an acoustic neck has more mass over a shorter length = strong

Are seriously trying to wind every one up?

An acoustic guitar neck has no more or less mass than an electric guitar neck. There are acoustic guitars that have significantly less mass than many electric guitars. There are acoustic guitars necks that have more mass than electric guitar necks. Unfortunately mass of the neck has zero to do with this...

say an SG = its bendy

"Bendy" is not a recognised scientific term. If you mean "elastic" an SG neck is made from the same materials the same as any other mahogany neck. The reason they are famous for not holding tune has nothing to do with the truss rod.

you can also put a bow in a neck ..

I have no idea why you would want to do that but whatever.. What you might want to do is add relief to a neck set. That isnt putting a "bow" in a neck that is partially compensating for the tension in the strings and resulting tension applied at the back of the neck to nearly but not quite restore it to its original position. A truss rods sole purpose is to counteract any bow in the neck not introduce one.. Again it is totally not the fix to the problem being discussed.

what about the headstock position when all this counter tensions going on?

What about it? I have no idea what you are attempting to propose...?

and that's not also the nut relation to the bridge .. and say the 24th fret?

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean either.

a guitar neck is only fixed at one end,to do what your talking about it must be fixed at both ends

The only thing applying force to the fingerboard is the truss rod. It has nothing to do with how a neck is fixed.

We are discussing truss rods. The equivalent scientific analysis on how they behave is as a fixed beam. A truss rod behaves as a fixed beam. The neck is not applying the force, it is attempting to maintain equilibrium under the pull of the strings which incidentally are anchored at both ends.

The more you type the more you show me that you havent grasped the fundamental principles of what is going on with a neck and the forces that act on it.

[muttley]

..........

dude! i am absolutely in shock that you don't know how this works !!

Well thanks for pointing it out.

I guess it all slipped by me despite a Masters in Musical Acoustics and 10 years teaching it at Degree level...

[cakewalkKaKed]

..........

dude! i am absolutely in shock that you don't know how this works !!

Well thanks for pointing it out.

I guess it all slipped by me despite a Masters in Musical Acoustics and 10 years teaching it at Degree level...

lol,when you finally figure it out your gonna feel like a right ass ...

[cakewalkKaKed]

cake, its time to choose between ladder and spade.

lol!,you think id go up against 30 year luther unless i knew something else he doesn't ... honestly its easy,i been doing setups for 30 years too

normally i let things like this go,i have nothing to prove and no reputation to keep,it matters not to me

[Greg_L]

lol!,you think id go up against 30 year luther unless i knew something else he doesn't ... honestly its easy,i been doing setups for 30 years too

normally i let things like this go,i have nothing to prove and no reputation to keep,it matters not to me

Lol. That's fine and all, but the point of yall's discussion is lost on me. Are you saying that a truss rod adjustment would have fixed my fret problem? Or have yall gone past that?

[Lt. Bob]

a guitar neck is only fixed at one end,to do what your talking about it must be fixed at both ends

the truss rod is fixed at each end ...... do you actually know how a truss rod works?
have you made one and put it in a neck?
I have and I'm sure muttley's done hundreds or more ..... there's no way it can move a 2nd or 3rd fret in relation to the frets around it ..... you're wrong about this but go ahead and pontificate how those of us that have worked on this stuff for 50 years "don't know how a truss rod works"!



it'd be different if you simply had a different opinion or offered an explanation of why we're wrong about this ..... that could be discussed and would be enlightening.
But you're being an ass about it so that usually means you don't actually have any info we don't.

And the truss rod definitely doesn't move the headstock in relation to the neck.