Look what I got....

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muttley
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by muttley »

Wow, hardly any break out at all. Normally when you pull a fret you have to be careful you dont pull bits of the fingerboard with it. You're lucky and unlucky at the same time.

Can you give a half decent pick of the back of the fret? The tang particularly.. You can open up the tang by banging a few more burrs on it with a file. If you need to I'll post a little video or pic to show you how..

You're probably best cleaning out the slot carefully and tapping it back in with some glue to hold the tang in there. You'll need to work out a way to clamp it down level with the other frets so it doesnt set high. I suggest a capo if you have one and make sure it gets pressure at the edges. You can use little popsicle stick wedges to hold the ends down if needed.. You will only get one go at gluing it is so practice your clamping method on an adjacent fret first as a dry run.
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by cakewalkKaKed »

Greg_L wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:28 pm
cakewalkKaKed wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:23 pm lol! that solves that then :D
I'm gonna go fretless!
:lollers2: there a gutherie govan vid somewhere where he bashes around on one .. looks great fun .. for maybe 10 mins :D
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Greg_L
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Greg_L »

muttley wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:53 pm Wow, hardly any break out at all. Normally when you pull a fret you have to be careful you dont pull bits of the fingerboard with it. You're lucky and unlucky at the same time.
It took very little effort to pop it out.
Can you give a half decent pick of the back of the fret? The tang particularly.. You can open up the tang by banging a few more burrs on it with a file. If you need to I'll post a little video or pic to show you how..
I think it's natural press-fit might be okay....to my untrained eye and feel. It feels like there is some resistance to just finger pushing it back in. I can't get it back in by hand. These are the best pics I could get...
Image
Image
You're probably best cleaning out the slot carefully and tapping it back in with some glue to hold the tang in there. You'll need to work out a way to clamp it down level with the other frets so it doesnt set high. I suggest a capo if you have one and make sure it gets pressure at the edges. You can use little popsicle stick wedges to hold the ends down if needed.. You will only get one go at gluing it is so practice your clamping method on an adjacent fret first as a dry run.
Okay I'm gonna dig around and see what I have for clamps. I do have a capo and a freezer full of popsicles. :coolstorybro:

I cleaned out the slot and edges of the slot. They were raised a little. I just skimmed them down with a razor blade. Looks pretty clean now. No significant chip-outs on the fretboard.
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muttley
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by muttley »

Thats good. Thats your starting point. Get the area clean and sound and hopefully free form dust of the edges. You want to be able to get that fret back in right down to the board. It wont take masses of pressure but you want to be able to hold it in firmly.

I suggest a capo as thats probably the best option for you. I have a bunch of clamping blocks that have the right radius on but to make them up for one fret would be a real PITA.. There is still a chance that once you have it seated in the right place that it may be a little high and then you will have to do some further stoning down. One of your main worries is that when you tap or press the frets in you normally have a slightly greater radius on the fret compared to the board and that helps seat it at the edges. You start tapping the edges in first then work from the centre out... You havent got much you can do on that so try and makes sure the edge gets full clamping pressure while the glue goes off...
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muttley
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by muttley »

That fret tang looks fine BTW I was just after seeing if it had any twist. You can try gently putting a little radius back on by massaging with your fingers but you dont want to kink it. Its more important at the ends. If you really futz it up I'll send you some fret wire ready radiused..
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Greg_L »

muttley wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:30 pm That fret tang looks fine BTW I was just after seeing if it had any twist. You can try gently putting a little radius back on by massaging with your fingers but you dont want to kink it. Its more important at the ends. If you really futz it up I'll send you some fret wire ready radiused..
Awesome, thanks mutt.

I'll get to work on it soon and let you know how it goes.
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Lt. Bob
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Lt. Bob »

muttley wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:28 pm
Lt. Bob wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:32 am ...........

Now I'm sure mutts gonna enlighten me that "OMG what a stupid idea!" :D but that's what I've always done
Thats pretty much how its done or variations there of.. Problem is that often people will stone down a high fret that has popped up. As soon as humidity changes the fret can get pulled back in as the fingerboard moves and then you have a low spot. Always check it isnt the fret thats popped first.
muttley wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:17 pm Be careful when doing what Boob suggests. Whilst it is correct it is also very easy to chase the problem along the board and we dont want that if the rest of the board is good.
These are the details that make you THE GUY!.
I look forward to us having a beer together if you don't get shot getting off the plane.
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Lt. Bob »

cakewalkKaKed wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:33 pm if humidity changed the wood could change,neck will either expand or contract .. if his neck relief was bowed enough as to hide an original fret problem then not enough relief would expose em ... truss rod for me would be 1st step to rule out humidity
not in the first few frets ..... the truss rod basically doesn't move that area of the neck at all
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Lt. Bob »

Greg_L wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:16 pm Okay mutt, so look at this, the whole fret just popped out with a little fingernail lift...

well there's yer problem!!

:lollers2:
Guitarslinger
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Guitarslinger »

cool guitar!
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Greg_L
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Greg_L »

muttley wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:30 pm That fret tang looks fine BTW I was just after seeing if it had any twist. You can try gently putting a little radius back on by massaging with your fingers but you dont want to kink it. Its more important at the ends. If you really futz it up I'll send you some fret wire ready radiused..
Ok mutt, well I right fucked it up. Lol. :lollers2:

Actually, I fixed the initial problem. Cleaned the slot, gently added some extra radius to the fret, pressed it home. The problem is I dented it with a hammer right where the B string rides. Total accident, but it happened. So the high E string problem is better, but now the B string is fuuuuucked. So I'm gonna need a new fret, and actually, I might just take it in to get the whole thing checked out. :facepalm:
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Lt. Bob »

two words ..... rawhide hammer!

but this is how you learn ......
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Greg_L »

Lt. Bob wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:59 pm two words ..... rawhide hammer!

but this is how you learn ......
Yeah I was using a small steel hammer and a brass punch to tap it in. And then I put a towel over it and tapped it with just the hammer. I think I tapped too hard. :frown:

But on the plus side, I did get rid of the buzz on the E string. :lollers2:

Since the fret is already fucked, I gave a crown and polish a try. It worked, but I can't get that nice narrow top on the fret. My try is a little bit wider. :headwall:
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by cakewalkKaKed »

Lt. Bob wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:30 pm
cakewalkKaKed wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:33 pm if humidity changed the wood could change,neck will either expand or contract .. if his neck relief was bowed enough as to hide an original fret problem then not enough relief would expose em ... truss rod for me would be 1st step to rule out humidity
not in the first few frets ..... the truss rod basically doesn't move that area of the neck at all
yes it does :)
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Lt. Bob
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Lt. Bob »

cakewalkKaKed wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:16 pm
Lt. Bob wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:30 pm
not in the first few frets ..... the truss rod basically doesn't move that area of the neck at all
yes it does :)
no .... no it doesn't ......... not on the frets around it ...... :cool: .... I can see not believing me ( though that's a mistake ) but did you not read muttley's post at all?
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by cakewalkKaKed »

Lt. Bob wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:26 am
cakewalkKaKed wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:16 pm

yes it does :)
no .... no it doesn't ......... not on the frets around it ...... :cool: .... I can see not believing me ( though that's a mistake ) but did you not read muttley's post at all?
over the years i watched a few of your vids,listened to your home tunes/clips,read lots of your posts :) ... your right,it wont cure individual frets .. but it will expose them,read back what i posted,just cos the outcome was different doesn't mean the information is incorrect ...

i read mutleys posts too,methinks he gets his knowledge from building acoustic guitars,his truss rod comments are probably correct from that standpoint (i only work on electrics) ... an electric neck is a different beast :like:
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muttley
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by muttley »

Greg_L wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:04 pm
Lt. Bob wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:59 pm two words ..... rawhide hammer!

but this is how you learn ......
Yeah I was using a small steel hammer and a brass punch to tap it in. And then I put a towel over it and tapped it with just the hammer. I think I tapped too hard. :frown:

But on the plus side, I did get rid of the buzz on the E string. :lollers2:

Since the fret is already fucked, I gave a crown and polish a try. It worked, but I can't get that nice narrow top on the fret. My try is a little bit wider. :headwall:
Thats why I advised using a wooden block to reseat the fret. You need to use sonething that will push the fret back but will also mark before the fret does. You'll know next time so it's not all bad.
Lets have a pic if you can get a half decent one.

There are ways to crown frets without using a fret crowning file.

Does the b Play OK now? If not whats it doing?
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Greg_L
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by Greg_L »

muttley wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:40 am

Thats why I advised using a wooden block to reseat the fret. You need to use sonething that will push the fret back but will also mark before the fret does. You'll know next time so it's not all bad.
Lets have a pic if you can get a half decent one.

There are ways to crown frets without using a fret crowning file.

Does the b Play OK now? If not whats it doing?
I must have missed the wooden block part. :facepalm:

In the past, I've seen videos of using a tiny hammer, but I thought I'd be doing okay by using a brass punch. Brass is soft. I had no idea a steel fret would be softer than brass. Maybe this Chinese guitar has some low-grade pot-metal frets or something.

No the B does not play okay. The original problem was on the high E, and it does play okay now, but the now the B is fucked with the big dent and I've probably mangled it with my halfassed crown job. I'll try to get a pic today.

I think what I'm gonna do is use this guitar as a guinea pig and learn how to refret it.
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muttley
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by muttley »

cakewalkKaKed wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:32 am
Lt. Bob wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:26 am
no .... no it doesn't ......... not on the frets around it ...... :cool: .... I can see not believing me ( though that's a mistake ) but did you not read muttley's post at all?
...........

i read mutleys posts too,methinks he gets his knowledge from building acoustic guitars,his truss rod comments are probably correct from that standpoint (i only work on electrics) ... an electric neck is a different beast :like:
No it isnt.

I dont want to blow my own trumpet but I've been building and repairing ALL types of guitars and fretted instruments for over 35 years, 25 of them exclusively full time. You dont have to read or take note of anything I say, thats your choice, but if one of the countries longest serving professional luthiers and most highly regarded archtop builders was talking to me about stuff I'd probably listen. I listen every time I meet another builder, they all know stuff that can improve my understanding and how I do stuff. We all have differant approaches to stuff that we can share but some things just are what they are...

A truss rod adjustment would not fix this kind of problem on any guitar and is not the first thing to look at when such a problem presents. If anything it would make the task more complicated.

Sorry if this has come across as a bit arrogant and blunt, its not personal but thats just the way it is...
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muttley
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Re: Look what I got....

Post by muttley »

Greg_L wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:46 am
muttley wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:40 am

Thats why I advised using a wooden block to reseat the fret. You need to use sonething that will push the fret back but will also mark before the fret does. You'll know next time so it's not all bad.
Lets have a pic if you can get a half decent one.

There are ways to crown frets without using a fret crowning file.

Does the b Play OK now? If not whats it doing?
I must have missed the wooden block part. :facepalm:

In the past, I've seen videos of using a tiny hammer, but I thought I'd be doing okay by using a brass punch. Brass is soft. I had no idea a steel fret would be softer than brass. Maybe this Chinese guitar has some low-grade pot-metal frets or something.

No the B does not play okay. The original problem was on the high E, and it does play okay now, but the now the B is fucked with the big dent and I've probably mangled it with my halfassed crown job. I'll try to get a pic today.

I think what I'm gonna do is use this guitar as a guinea pig and learn how to refret it.
Frets are nickle silver which is largely copper, around a fifth is nickle and there are a bunch of other trace stuff in there to aid tarnishing and make the base harder. and some other elements like brass that make it harder. Brass can often be harder than the nickle silver. The fret wire is probably not dunlop quality but hey ho its a Chibson after all. If you were doing a lot of frets I would advise getting a small nylon tipped pin hammer or a small steel head pin hammer and keep the striking face well polished. I cover the head with masking tap when tapping on frets I dont want to recrown or polish but I have a good feel for it after doing lots of em..

What is the problem on the b? Catching on the dent? Buzzing? It could be that know you've reseated the fret it is buzzing simply because it is back where it should have been all along. Check out the higher frets. Like I said one of the problems of doing this sort of thing is chasing the problem up the board.

Dont do anything too drastic yet. A refret can be done but you'll learn from what you are trying now...
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