The Tone Thread

[Minerman]

Sweet Dan has brought my attention to Eminence speakers again today, I'd been looking at some of 'em just a few days ago, & they have 2 models in particular that caught my attention...
They have a built-in attenuator, similar to the FluxTone speakers, but without the ridiculous price tag (which is $1275 for one speaker )...

FluxTone Model 6 (Greenback)

Eminence ReignMaker

How well these things work is beyond me, but if it knocks off a few db's of noise, while retaining the tone (which they all claim to do), would be pretty cool...I'm skeptical myself, but reading up on 'em, some folks say they do what they're supposed to...

That said, a speaker pushed at or above a certain level is a big part of the tones I usually go for, so if these speakers do knock off a few db's, I can't see it being the same as an un-attenuated speaker's sound...

As far as their "regular" guitar speakers, they seem to be pretty popular with a lot of folks, & they're not quite as expensive as Celestions...

What do you guys think about any of these speakers???

[Greg_L]

Eminence speakers are pretty cool.

Eminence attenuation speakers are retarded.

You could by 10 normal speakers and a real attenuator for the price of one of those gimmicks.

[Minerman]

Eminence speakers are pretty cool.

I've never tried any Eminence speakers, & just wondering how they compare to what Celestion has (IE: WGS Green Beret is close to a Greenback, Veteran 30 = V30, etc)...

Eminence attenuation speakers are retarded.
You could by 10 normal speakers and a real attenuator for the price of one of those gimmicks.

Yeah man, that's just crazy to say the least...The Eminence attenuated speakers are about the price of a Celestion (Reign Makers are $115 each, which ain't bad), the Flux Tone are the retarded ones (over $1,000 each, which is a joke)...There's no fuckin' way I'd ever pay that much for one speaker, hell that cost about as much as I've got in both my amps...

I'm sure they've figured out how to knock a few db's off, but I'm wondering how much tone they suck...A speaker being pushed & a certain amount of air moving is a big part of guitar tone...I've learned over the past few years that with any kind of attenuation, there's a trade-off/compromise, just wondering how much it affects the tone...

It would be a huge pain in the ass with a closed-back cab, but for me with the ISO cab that wouldn't matter...

I'll never know with those Flux Tone shits, but the Eminence aren't priced too bad...

[Greg_L]

Yeah man, that's just crazy to say the least...The Eminence attenuated speakers are about the price of a Celestion (Reign Makers are $115 each, which ain't bad), the Flux Tone are the retarded ones (over $1,000 each, which is a joke)...There's no fuckin' way I'd ever pay that much for one speaker, hell that cost about as much as I've got in both my amps...

I'm sure they've figured out how to knock a few db's off, but I'm wondering how much tone they suck...A speaker being pushed & a certain amount of air moving is a big part of guitar tone...I've learned over the past few years that with any kind of attenuation, there's a trade-off/compromise, just wondering how much it affects the tone...

It would be a huge pain in the ass with a closed-back cab, but for me with the ISO cab that wouldn't matter...

I'll never know with those Flux Tone shits, but the Eminence aren't priced too bad...

I don't know how much I'd trust some knob on the back of a speaker. That's just me.

I think it's impossible for something in the signal chain to not affect tone. How much affect it has, and how much it matters is subjective, but nothing is truly transparent and something as heavy as an attenuator can't not do something to the sound. It's always a compromise in some way. Even a simple master volume is a compromise. Does a JCM 800 sound as good turned way down as it does turned way up? Hell no. But that's the compromise you have to make if you don't want permanent ear damage from just goofing around at home.

IMO something like power scaling is the best low volume trick. If done correctly, it actually drops the B+ voltage in the amp and also compensates the tube bias so everything works as if it's under full power even when it isn't. It's kind of like a variac that also takes care of all the other shit that needs to happen to keep things running smoothly. But....as always...no matter how you do it, cutting volume takes away a very important part of the equation - speakers moving air.

[Minerman]

I don't know how much I'd trust some knob on the back of a speaker. That's just me.

I can dig that dude, I'm pretty paranoid about fucking something of mine up, a lot of which ain't cheap to me...

I think it's impossible for something in the signal chain to not affect tone. How much affect it has, and how much it matters is subjective, but nothing is truly transparent and something as heavy as an attenuator can't not do something to the sound. It's always a compromise in some way. Even a simple master volume is a compromise. Does a JCM 800 sound as good turned way down as it does turned way up? Hell no. But that's the compromise you have to make if you don't want permanent ear damage from just goofing around at home.

IMO something like power scaling is the best low volume trick. If done correctly, it actually drops the B+ voltage in the amp and also compensates the tube bias so everything works as if it's under full power even when it isn't. It's kind of like a variac that also takes care of all the other shit that needs to happen to keep things running smoothly. But....as always...no matter how you do it, cutting volume takes away a very important part of the equation - speakers moving air.

Yes, everything is a trade-off or compromise in one way or another...I've chased my tail for years trying to control noise, but noise is just a part of this shit, & that's that, I can reduce the noise, but it'll never be totally silent unless I spend a hell of a chunk of change or go direct...

I read up a little on power scaling a week or two ago & I think that's pretty cool...My Mini Jubilee sorta has this, not sure how many watts EL34's put out, but from what I've read, they dropped the B+ voltage to reduce the output...

Now I'm not sure how well those "attenuator" speakers work, but I think it's funny Eminence has about the same thing (I'm assuming) for a fraction of the price...Sounds like a huge rip-off to me...

I might buy an Eminence speaker or two one of these days, but it won't be an attenuated version...I've made up my mind I'm buying an attenuator, which could be in the next few days, maybe...I'm positive I'll be able to use big amps again, but have no idea when that'll happen...

[Greg_L]

I read up a little on power scaling a week or two ago & I think that's pretty cool...My Mini Jubilee sorta has this, not sure how many watts EL34's put out, but from what I've read, they dropped the B+ voltage to reduce the output...

Right. They scale back the internal voltage to make EL34s put out lower wattage and still work in a push/pull fashion. Your Jube has sort of a permanent fixed power scaling. One of the more popular power scaling mods is called London Power Scaling and it's adjustable like a master volume. It's sort of shrouded in mystery. You can buy the kit, but supposedly you really need to know how and why it works to install it because the instructions leave much to be desired. I've looked into it myself but that shit is way way above my pay grade. That's something for a real tech IMO. I'd need very detailed instructions. They also generate their own heat, so careful installation and placement of the parts is a must. Some dudes install a small computer fan to keep it cool. I'm not about to get into any of that.

Now I'm not sure how well those "attenuator" speakers work, but I think it's funny Eminence has about the same thing (I'm assuming) for a fraction of the price...Sounds like a huge rip-off to me...

I might buy an Eminence speaker or two one of these days, but it won't be an attenuated version...I've made up my mind I'm buying an attenuator, which could be in the next few days, maybe...I'm positive I'll be able to use big amps again, but have no idea when that'll happen...

I can't imagine the speaker knob version is anything more than a variable resistor mounted to the back of a speaker. I'm guessing it's a simple attenuator built into the speaker.

You could actually build your own attenuator. They're really nothing more than a very high wattage variable resistor. Passive attenuators do little more than simply turn unused speaker current into heat. Your loud ass signal goes through a giant resistor or series of resistors and what doesn't go to the speaker gets put off as heat. That's it. Since I've broken my Weber Mass a few times, I've been in there quite a bit. Lol. There's nothing to it. It's a giant ceramic rheostat and a high pass filter for getting some high end back when you use a lot of attenuation. Add a line out and some extra speaker jacks and bam - you have a very good attenuator. It does get hot though. When I run my Super Leads through that thing it makes some heat.

An active attenuator, like the expensive Torpedo shit or the Ultimate attenuator is a different game. They actually use transformers and buffers and shit. They have active components that put more crap into the signal path than reactive attenuators do. They "put back" a lot of the stuff that gets lost, but you know, it's all kind of artificial. They do a good job of it though for a big price.

[JD01]

Hello new speaker...goodbye wolly-ness!!!

I'm gonna interrupt just a bit, sorry.

The other day I ordered a new speaker to throw in my Vox AD30VT (early-gen modeling amp). The new speaker was delivered today.

And WOW! does it record better than the old/stock one - take a gander (or it's aural equivalent) at this:

http://eastofcleveland.com/m/speakerUpg ... nCajun.mp3

(You don't need to listen to everything; the point is clearly made even with the first segment. However, if you're listening to the whole thing, there are 11 different groups of sound segments in the recording; each has ~25s with the stock speaker, followed by ~25s with the new speaker.)

Eminence 10"/75w/8ohm Rajun Cajun

Tele-clone, bridge p/u with 100% tone/volume -> amp* -> SM57 2" from grille on-axis dead center

*Amp notes: since it's a modeling amp, I actually recorded a snippet of each of the amp models. They are:

Botique CL (model of a ?)
Black 2x12 (model of a Fender twin or deluxe or something like that)
Tweed 4x10 (model of a Bassman)
AC15
AC30TB
UK '70s (70's Marshall model)
UK '80s (80's Marshall model)
UK Modern (90's Marshall model)
Numetal (?)
US Higain (model of a Mesa?)
Botique OD (?)

For this comparison I didn't futz around w/gain or eq settings, I just went with the default/preset options on each amp model. (I did bypass all the on-board f/x presets with each model, however.)

The new speaker is clearly a massive improvement! You might want to move your mic out from the centre though.

[JD01]

Thanks Greg and Miner for your feedback on yesterday's song idea. I've retracked and used a janglier/thinner sound on both guitars and hopefully this sounds better - it does to me.

To save anyone else hunting down the post from yesterday, here's the first clip I put up:
Proj 12 song idea take 1

And here's this morning's retrack: Proj 12 song idea take 2

The guitar vs. bass+drums mix might be a bit different, but it's mainly the guitar tone I'm interested in - the rest is just there for context.

All comments appreciated...

I think take 2 sounds excellent, mate and exactly like an Armistice song.

[SweetDan]

The new speaker is clearly a massive improvement! You might want to move your mic out from the centre though.

Oh yeah, I'm going to have to go through the whole process of finding the sweet spot (or spots) on this speaker.

[WhiskeyJack]

I don't know how much I'd trust some knob on the back of a speaker. That's just me.

Your right in your distrust. my basscab has a mid knob on the back of the cab to control a a thrid horn type speaker. I am not overly inlove with and when i get around to working on my basstones again i think i may open that sucker up and take that horn and knob right out of the equation if i can. I think it can get messy and annoying.

i might be wrong.

[Armistice]

I think take 2 sounds excellent, mate and exactly like an Armistice song.

Thanks. Seems like whatever I do, I end up sounding like myself...

You'll have to explain what it is you're hearing.

I think this year this will be more the direction I go in. Shorter. Simpler structures. Way less guitar tracks. Going to speak to ex-Jongleur mate to see if he wants to be the singer - he's so much better than I am.

[rayc]

And here's this morning's retrack: Proj 12 song idea take 2

I like take 2 - grainier, and more I don't know but more...There's is a lot of you in what & how you play David. I like where this has been and look forward to where it may end up.

[rayc]

Amp tech rang today - he ended up taking an unplanned holiday - is back and work and will work on my amp this arvo.
He'll move the Presence knob to the back of the amp & put the PPIMV knob in the presence spot on the front. He was concerned because he said my amp is in such clean, beautiful condition he didn't want to do something that would damage it cosmetically. I think that's an issue but it was more a call to make it seem that the last 2 months of the amp sitting there weren't a waste of time and bad business.

[Greg_L]

Amp tech rang today - he ended up taking an unplanned holiday - is back and work and will work on my amp this arvo.
He'll move the Presence knob to the back of the amp & put the PPIMV knob in the presence spot on the front. He was concerned because he said my amp is in such clean, beautiful condition he didn't want to do something that would damage it cosmetically. I think that's an issue but it was more a call to make it seem that the last 2 months of the amp sitting there weren't a waste of time and bad business.

I'd suggest you not do that. The negative feedback wire comes from the presence pot and it's very susceptible to noise and oscillation if it's not routed a specific way. That's a lot of re-routing and longer wire runs. Not a great idea. I'm sure your tech knows better, but keep it in mind.

I think the best option is to remove one speaker jack and install the PPIMV pot in that hole. Yes, you'll have to reach to the back of the amp to adjust volume, but but it keeps everything stock and easily reversible. Removing one speaker jack is way way simpler than relocating the presence control.

[rayc]

I think the best option is to remove one speaker jack and install the PPIMV pot in that hole. Yes, you'll have to reach to the back of the amp to adjust volume, but but it keeps everything stock and easily reversible. Removing one speaker jack is way way simpler than relocating the presence control.

I'll contact him.

[Minerman]

I think the best option is to remove one speaker jack and install the PPIMV pot in that hole. Yes, you'll have to reach to the back of the amp to adjust volume, but but it keeps everything stock and easily reversible. Removing one speaker jack is way way simpler than relocating the presence control.

I'll contact him.

I'd want the mod to be easily reversible if it was my amp Ray, so it'd definitely be good to discuss this with your tech...

You could use a chicken-head knob on the back so you could feel where the knob is set without seeing it...

[Greg_L]

I'll contact him.

Another option is using the normal channel's low input jack location. If you never use that input, the jack can be removed and the ppimv put there. Then the ppimv will be on the front of the amp. It's pretty common and also non-destructive and easily reversible. But you'll have long wire runs inside the amp and you also may want to explore than input now with your amp now being a Super Lead. It's just another option hat doesn't require moving the presence pot, and more importantly, the negative feedback wire.

[JD01]

I think take 2 sounds excellent, mate and exactly like an Armistice song.

Thanks. Seems like whatever I do, I end up sounding like myself...

You'll have to explain what it is you're hearing.

I think this year this will be more the direction I go in. Shorter. Simpler structures. Way less guitar tracks. Going to speak to ex-Jongleur mate to see if he wants to be the singer - he's so much better than I am.

It just sounds like a really good clean tone to me.

[rayc]

Another option is using the normal channel's low input jack location.

I contacted the tech. He said you def. know what you're talking about Greg.

[Greg_L]

I contacted the tech. He said you def. know what you're talking about Greg.

Lol. Well that's nice and reassuring for me I guess. I truly just want your amp to be as great as I know it can be....and trouble-free. I know getting it to techs and stuff is hard for you. If this conversion works like it should, you're gonna have one killer guitar amp.